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91
Politics and Government / Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Last post by davedan on October 08, 2018, 09:50:58 pm »
Have shares in coat hanger companies risen yet?
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Politics and Government / Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Last post by The_Queen on October 08, 2018, 06:29:29 pm »
And the Supreme Court's officially stacked. Fuck Donald Trump and the Republican fascists behind him.

I've said it once, I'll say it again (and not to you, of course): elections have consequences and abortion rights were nice while they lasted.

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Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Jacob Harrison on October 08, 2018, 05:58:15 pm »
Cool story, bro.

Cool attempted refutation bro. Prepare for my ultimate refutation of your refutation.

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Verse 52:15: “so will many nations be amazed at him and kings will shut their mouths because of him.”

The nations will be amazed and the kings speechless? Nope, not only was Jesus not internationally famous during his lifetime, history records nothing of his life outside the gospels. True, we have evidence of his followers from historians such as Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius, but it is curious that we have nothing about the works of Jesus himself from prolific contemporary authors such as Philo of Alexandria, Seneca, and Pliny the Elder. Apparently he wasn’t as famous as imagined prophecy would have him be.
But he later became famous when Christianity spread so the prophecy was fulfilled.

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53:10: “he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.” This is a nice thought—Jesus endures great trials but then, like Job, he is rewarded with children, prosperity, and long life. As Proverbs says, “Grandchildren are the crown of old men.”

Unfortunately, this isn’t how the gospel story plays out.

This article from http://www.hadavar.org refutes that.

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Regarding Jesus not fathering children, the entire argument centers around whether the term seed, “zerah” has a metaphorical use or whether it is limited strictly to a literal use in Scripture. If the term can rightfully be viewed in a metaphorical sense then the “seed” of the suffering individual in Isaiah 53:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) can be spiritual descendants or disciples rather than literal offspring. If the term cannot be viewed metaphorically then it is a reference to children born to the suffering individual.

Firstly, let’s consider the context of Isaiah 53:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available). The key question to ask is, “How can a dead man who has been sacrificed as a guilt offering (vs. 10), see his literal children and prolong his days?” It is affirmed by scores of respected Jewish commentators that the suffering individual of Isaiah 53:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) actually dies in verses 8-10. (See: The Suffering Servant of Isaiah, Driver and Neubauer, pages lxx-ixxii) The only way this can happen is if the individual is resurrected. So, there is something more going on here than the normal. God is intervening with the miraculous. This immediately should alert us to the possibility that normal, natural course of events may be superseded. The literal offspring of the servant may not be the intended thought. The context supports a metaphorical meaning of the word zerah.

Secondly, let’s explore the range of meaning found in the word “zerah.”[1]

The word can mean sowing as repeatedly happens each agricultural season (e.g. Gen. 47:24Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
The word often means the actual seed that is planted in the ground. (e.g. Gen. 47:19Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
Zerah occasionally means “semen.” (e.g. Lev. 15:16Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
The term often means offspring. (e.g. Gen. 4:25Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
Finally, is used to identify groups and individuals that are united by a common quality. (e.g. Pr. 11:21Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
Already a number of metaphorical uses have made their appearance. It is self-evident that usage number one, sowing, does not mean “literal descendants.”

Under usage number two we discover a figurative or metaphorical usage as well. The idolatry of Judah is likened to seed in Isaiah 17:11Open in Logos Bible Software (if available). In Psalm 126:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) the fortunes of Zion are likened to seed and sheaves (See also Ezk. 17:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).

Another self-evident metaphorical usage is usage number three where seed means “semen” rather than literal descendants.

Usage number four is the usage the anti-missionary wants to emphasize. Zerah often means literal offspring, but it does not mean that exclusively. This is the fact that the anti-missionary is trying to obscure. One notable aspect of this usage is the fact that the word can refer to future generations[2] (e.g. Deuteronomy 28:46Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). To quote Dr. Michael L. Brown, from his book Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus (Vol. 3, page 84), “In the context of Isaiah 53:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), this would mean that the servant of the Lord would see future generations of his people serving the Lord.” This is a very apt description of the fulfillment of this verse in Jesus.

Finally, the fifth usage is highly metaphorical. One example is Proverbs 11:21Open in Logos Bible Software (if available). If you take Proverbs 11:21Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) as strictly meaning “literal descendants” that would mean that the literal descendants of a wicked person are doomed to punishment even if they live a Godly life. Why? Because they are not the children of a righteous man. You would be forced to interpret Proverbs 11:21Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) as teaching that your punishment or deliverance is decided by your forbears, no matter what your personal righteousness happens to be. Of course that is a ridiculous interpretation that is totally nullified by the lives of righteous individuals whose forbears were wicked. Godly King Hezekiah, the direct descendent of wicked King Ahaz comes to mind, as does Ezekiel 18:20Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) (Tanakh),

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53:11: “my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.” So Jesus, a person of the Trinity and equal to God the Father, is now God’s servant?

The Jesus part of the trinity of God is a servant of the Father part of the trinity.

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And here’s the big one: “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great [or many] and he will divide the spoils with the strong [or numerous]” (53:12). Like a warrior who gets a share of the spoils of the battle, the servant will be richly rewarded. This servant is just one among many who gets a portion.

Wait a minute—Jesus has peers? He’s one among equals, just “one of the great”? What kind of nonsense is this? Again, this bears no resemblance to the Jesus of the gospels.

http://www.bible-studys.org explains it.

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“Portion with the great … divide the spoil”: The Servant’s reward for His work will be to enjoy the “booty of His spiritual victories during His millennial reign.

“Numbered with the transgressors”: The Servant assumes a role among sinful human beings, fulfilled by Jesus when He was crucified between two criminals (Luke 22:37).

“Made intercession for the transgressors”: This speaks of the office of intercessory High-Priest, which began on the cross (Luke 23:34), and continues in heaven (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

So that Patheos article has been refuted.
94
Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by dpareja on October 08, 2018, 04:36:04 pm »
95
Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Jacob Harrison on October 08, 2018, 04:18:34 pm »
Isaiah 53 is irrefutable proof of Christianity because it was written centuries before Christ and is an accurate prophecy of Christ. The reason that most Jews are unfamiliar with it, is because it deliberately not read in the synagogue readings, because the sinister Rabbis are covering up that Jesus is the messiah and that Judaism is a false religion.

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A prophecy of the passion of Christ.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? [2] And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him: [3] Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

[6] All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. [8] He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut off out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him. [9] And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth. [10] And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

[11] Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.-Isaiah 53 Douay-Rheims Version
96
Preaching and Worship / Re: Parallel Hero Updates Thread
« Last post by Jacob Harrison on October 08, 2018, 08:22:52 am »
So when is Chapter 11 Part 2 coming?
97
Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Jacob Harrison on October 08, 2018, 08:20:49 am »
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Finally, just as there are different emphases in the genealogies, so too there are different explanations for the dissimilarities between them. Matthew traces his genealogy through David’s son Solomon, while Luke traces his genealogy through David’s son Nathan. It may be that Matthew’s purpose is to provide the legal lineage from Solomon through Joseph, while Luke’s purpose is to provide the natural lineage from Nathan through Mary.

Mary? The patriarchal old Israelites insisted that Messiah's came from a paternal Davidic line.

Or it could be that the two different authors didn't talk to each other and produced different excuses  genealogies. Occam's razor m8.

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It could also be that Matthew and Luke are both tracing Joseph’s genealogy— Matthew, the legal line, and Luke, the natural line. As such, the legal line diverges from the natural in that Levirate Law stipulated if a man died without an heir his genealogy could legally continue through his brother (Deuteronomy 25:5–6). Obviously, the fact that there are a number of ways to resolve dissimilarities rules out the notion that the genealogies are contradictory.

Yeah, but guys the main problem ain't the brother-it's the mother. I have little doubt that Jacob buys all that virgin birth hooey, problem is-if he does it doesn't matter who Jacob's parents were, that legal line he's talking about is a patrilineal line, through the fathers. If the kid had a mum but not a dad then it doesn't matter who his stepdad was "natural lines" not withstanding.

Let it not be left unsaid that the "number of ways" to resolve the dissimilarities rely on hypotheticals that aren't explicitly there in the text. If you say X. Y and Z you haven't resolved the dissimilarities you've merely hypothesized that they aren't there because of new information you've no evidence for existing.

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It should be noted that Luke's list is composed of males (with the exception of Mary).Therefore she was clearly a descendant of David and Abraham. Today Jewish descent has to be through the mother - something which those Jews who use this objection must find hard to answer? Gen.3:15 describes the Messiah as the seed of the woman; it is fitting, therefore, that Messiah's matrilineal genealogy should be provided, and that his Messianic descent (i.e. as the seed of Abraham and David) should be shown through his mother's line. It should be remembered too that the daughters of Zelophehad had inheritance rights and were allowed to trace their inheritance, showing that it is not an immutable Divine principle that inheritance cannot go through women (consider Num.26:33; 27:1-7; 36:2-11).

There are other examples of this. Jair's father was of the tribe of Judah (1 Chron.2:22); yet in Num.32:41 he is described as " the son of Manasseh" , showing that his mother must have been of the tribe of Manasseh. His descent was reckoned for some reason through his mother rather than his father. 1 Chron.2:34 records that Sheshan " had no sons, but daughters" . According to the Jewish objection that genealogy cannot be reckoned through the woman, Sheshan would have no subsequent genealogy. However, he is described in 1 Chron.2:31 as having a son, presumably from the fact that he gave his daughter in marriage to his Egyptian servant (1 Chron.2:34). Thus his seed was still reckoned through a woman. Hiram is described as " the son of a woman of the daughters of Dan" (2 Chron.2:14). Other examples of this could be given.

http://www.aletheiacollege.net/dbb/5-3-1jewish_objections_to_the_ancestry_of_jesus.htm
98
Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Tolpuddle Martyr on October 08, 2018, 07:36:12 am »
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Finally, just as there are different emphases in the genealogies, so too there are different explanations for the dissimilarities between them. Matthew traces his genealogy through David’s son Solomon, while Luke traces his genealogy through David’s son Nathan. It may be that Matthew’s purpose is to provide the legal lineage from Solomon through Joseph, while Luke’s purpose is to provide the natural lineage from Nathan through Mary.

Mary? The patriarchal old Israelites insisted that Messiah's came from a paternal Davidic line.

Or it could be that the two different authors didn't talk to each other and produced different excuses  genealogies. Occam's razor m8.

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It could also be that Matthew and Luke are both tracing Joseph’s genealogy— Matthew, the legal line, and Luke, the natural line. As such, the legal line diverges from the natural in that Levirate Law stipulated if a man died without an heir his genealogy could legally continue through his brother (Deuteronomy 25:5–6). Obviously, the fact that there are a number of ways to resolve dissimilarities rules out the notion that the genealogies are contradictory.

Yeah, but guys the main problem ain't the brother-it's the mother. I have little doubt that Jacob buys all that virgin birth hooey, problem is-if he does it doesn't matter who Jacob's parents were, that legal line he's talking about is a patrilineal line, through the fathers. If the kid had a mum but not a dad then it doesn't matter who his stepdad was "natural lines" not withstanding.

Let it not be left unsaid that the "number of ways" to resolve the dissimilarities rely on hypotheticals that aren't explicitly there in the text. If you say X. Y and Z you haven't resolved the dissimilarities you've merely hypothesized that they aren't there because of new information you've no evidence for existing.
99
Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Jacob Harrison on October 07, 2018, 08:05:46 am »
This is where Christianity is on real shaky ground, on the one hand one of their selling points is that Jesus is an ordinary bloke, a carpenter, a street mystic and a man who rubbed shoulders with ordinary folks, not just the well to do. Then they go and claim that he's actually a scruffily dressed king. To claim messiahood Matthew and Luke posit contradictory genealogies which diverge from older Jewish texts and use that as the basis to claim his kingship and relation to the line of King David.

The people who believe this claim are Christians who still give a toss about genealogy (like someone we know.) It's notable that Jews who give a toss about genealogy don't believe a word of it. The most likely scenario is that the 'begat' lists in Matthew and Luke were tossed together post facto to justify the Christian claim that Jesus has the requisite ancestry to be a messiah.

This site explains the supposed contradictions between the genealogies in Mathew and Luke. https://www.google.com/amp/www.equip.org/bible_answers/do-the-genealogies-of-jesus-in-matthew-and-luke-contradict-one-another/amp/. The Mathew genealogy is the genealogy of Joseph and the Luke genealogy is the genealogy of Mary. And how does it diverge from the Jewish texts?
100
Preaching and Worship / Re: More proof that Christianity is true.
« Last post by Tolpuddle Martyr on October 07, 2018, 05:08:43 am »
This is where Christianity is on real shaky ground, on the one hand one of their selling points is that Jesus is an ordinary bloke, a carpenter, a street mystic and a man who rubbed shoulders with ordinary folks, not just the well to do. Then they go and claim that he's actually a scruffily dressed king. To claim messiahood Matthew and Luke posit contradictory genealogies which diverge from older Jewish texts and use that as the basis to claim his kingship and relation to the line of King David.

The people who believe this claim are Christians who still give a toss about genealogy (like someone we know.) It's notable that Jews who give a toss about genealogy don't believe a word of it. The most likely scenario is that the 'begat' lists in Matthew and Luke were tossed together post facto to justify the Christian claim that Jesus has the requisite ancestry to be a messiah. 
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