Author Topic: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?  (Read 11847 times)

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Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2013, 01:31:12 am »
I refer again to St. Francis: "Preach the gospel, and when necessary, use words."

My answer to that would be another Bible verse.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

In my opinion, being that I believe the Bible the Word of God and St. Francis a man, I have to believe that is not a correct way to preach the Gospel. Not saying that people can't be converted because they saw a Christian living well, but I don't think it happens much.

I'm sure it happens more often than you may think though.

Offline Rime

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2013, 04:19:27 am »
I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked. I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true. I've heard it said that if you throw a stone in a yard full of dogs the one who yelps is the one who got hit. I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it. I do want to point out though that Jesus did say hypocrites would be cast out, but he's pretty clear that all sinners will have their part in the lake of fire. I know it may seem like I'm hell fire preaching now, I just wanted to make the point that isn't the only group of people. I'd be irresponsible of me to let you think that everyone but hypocritical Christians are ok to go.

I also want to say that's terrible about your childhood experience, and for what it's worth I'd like to apologize for the way those Christians treated you. Again I know some Christians don't act right, but also remember that Jesus said some Christians would be cast out because he never knew them. That doesn't mean that true believers will be cast out, but rather there are some people going around claiming to be something they're not. I'd just like to implore you, and everyone else reading to not judge God for what his presumed followers have done.

The Bible isn't offensive.  People using it as some sort of weapon, however, are.  The person you looked at in the mirror and loathed with all your being, obsessed with shutting down FSTDT with apologetics because you believed it was a hate site long ago was one of them.

Most everyone here is pretty aware that the Bible says sinners go to Hell.  We know it says that, and the whole "you can't be forgiven unless Jesus approves" is something we're also aware of, but so is the average person's desire for prestige, attention and influence.  And although I do remember what you did, I'll keep in mind that you are certainly putting on the impression that you've drifted away from that mentality.

And not judging God for what his presumed followers have done is what this site is all about, although mileage will vary.  After all, you came back here a few years ago and started quoting the bible in the forums, saying "you like to talk against people, let's see you fight the WORD of GOD!"

You might say the preaching "hurts" but I don't think you feel any less hurt when someone quotes the Bible at you when they think you've misinterpreted something.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 06:18:59 am by Rime »
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Offline Lithp

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2013, 05:18:30 am »
Quote
I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked.

That, that it is being used in place of an argument, or both.

In the context of this thread it makes sense, & I'm not sure how much sense Rime's reaction makes, but here we are.

Quote
I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true.

Other times it's the things that are just kind of dickish. The Bible says some things about unbelievers being foolish & possibly evil, I'm not really sure. I don't really care, either, people believe some pretty bizarre things about that which they do not understand. Also, haven't anti-Christian things pissed you off before?

Quote
I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it.

That'll end well. Also, I think it is easily answered by the following question: What is the best way for me to turn you into an atheist?

Exactly. That's how much sense evangelizing makes.

Offline JohnE

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2013, 04:19:06 pm »
Also, I think it is easily answered by the following question: What is the best way for me to turn you into an atheist?
I actually think that's a really interesting question, and the vice versa. The answer, if someone's willing to answer, tells you a lot about their mentality and thought process.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2013, 04:34:09 pm »
Quote
I can understand that. Honestly at its heart, The Bible is very offensive to us. When quoting it certainly can feel like you're being attacked.

That, that it is being used in place of an argument, or both.

In the context of this thread it makes sense, & I'm not sure how much sense Rime's reaction makes, but here we are.

Quote
I think of it like this though, sometimes the things that hurt are the things we know are true.

Other times it's the things that are just kind of dickish. The Bible says some things about unbelievers being foolish & possibly evil, I'm not really sure. I don't really care, either, people believe some pretty bizarre things about that which they do not understand. Also, haven't anti-Christian things pissed you off before?

Quote
I honestly can't tell you what the best way to evangelize is. All I can tell you is we're suppose to do it.

That'll end well. Also, I think it is easily answered by the following question: What is the best way for me to turn you into an atheist?

Exactly. That's how much sense evangelizing makes.
You are right, it doesn't make sense for me to try and turn you into a Christian. Evangelizing isn't pointless though. I can't convert you, but I can try and answer the question you have. I can also tell you what I believe. There is so much bad evangelizing going on that some people get confused and don't truly understand what Christianity is about. I'm not saying that's you, but I think you'd admit that is sometimes the case with others. My goal is to provide the Gospel to anyone who wants to listen. What they do with it is their business.

Offline rookie

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2013, 09:25:11 am »
However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong. I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings. I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.         

Sorry, I know you said this a couple days ago. I've been away for a bit. But I did catch this and wanted to say a bit about this general sentiment, especially the bolded part.

I would submit to you that my (I hope our) biggest problem with the ones "doing it wrong" isn't that there are people doing it wrong. Every group has it's asshats or self promoters or people who just miss the mark so astoundingly. Atheists have Richard Dawkins, animal rights have PeTA, Muslims have clerics blowing up stuff. As you said, it comes with being human. No, my biggest problem is the silence from the rest of Christianity about the ones "doing it wrong". Every prominent atheist in America (both of them) say Dawkins is an ass who is harming atheism. The ASPCA and Humane Society among others denounce the actions of PeTA. And Islamic clerics come out against suicide bombers and such whenever they can (such as when being interviewed after a tragedy). But with mainstream Christianity you just don't see that except for what's-his-name that blew up that abortion clinic, Fred Phelps, and we all remember Harold Camping. Those are the only exceptions.

I will grant you that judging Christianity by the sounds of hatred + crickets chirping looks one hell of a lot like judging it by the hatred. But there is a marked difference. Just something to think about.
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Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2013, 02:21:11 pm »
Since it seems this topic is played out, Chris, which point from my initial post would you like to discuss next?
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Offline Rime

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2013, 04:20:37 pm »
However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong.

Yes, but it doesn't prove that the religion is right.  Just because democracy works okay in the US, doesn't in fact mean that it works everywhere else.

I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings.

Mileage varies, BigChrisfilm.  I don't hold anyone up to a ruler and decide they are worthless.  Granted, my workplace has had some stellar examples of short term memory problems, bad attitudes, etc, but I do not write them off as people, just people who are fit to do something else.  Besides, have you ever noticed that some folks claiming to have the Holy Spirit living inside them suddenly gives everyone the impression that they should be served as royalty?

I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.

Yes, I'm curious as to how you went from "I'm your High Priest and I'll dictate wisdom to you ingrates" to "I'm very Christian, but I'm interested in what you think.  And again, I won't hang the mantle of the past on your shoulders every time you post, but remember you had a stellar reputation before being banned.
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Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2013, 11:15:56 pm »
However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong. I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings. I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.         

Sorry, I know you said this a couple days ago. I've been away for a bit. But I did catch this and wanted to say a bit about this general sentiment, especially the bolded part.

I would submit to you that my (I hope our) biggest problem with the ones "doing it wrong" isn't that there are people doing it wrong. Every group has it's asshats or self promoters or people who just miss the mark so astoundingly. Atheists have Richard Dawkins, animal rights have PeTA, Muslims have clerics blowing up stuff. As you said, it comes with being human. No, my biggest problem is the silence from the rest of Christianity about the ones "doing it wrong". Every prominent atheist in America (both of them) say Dawkins is an ass who is harming atheism. The ASPCA and Humane Society among others denounce the actions of PeTA. And Islamic clerics come out against suicide bombers and such whenever they can (such as when being interviewed after a tragedy). But with mainstream Christianity you just don't see that except for what's-his-name that blew up that abortion clinic, Fred Phelps, and we all remember Harold Camping. Those are the only exceptions.

I will grant you that judging Christianity by the sounds of hatred + crickets chirping looks one hell of a lot like judging it by the hatred. But there is a marked difference. Just something to think about.

I agree with you about that for the most part. There is a problem in with Christians being afraid to speak out against other "Christians" who are not truly representing our faith. In my experience I feel it's because they are often unsure of their own beliefs, or I think it's the Western mentality we all have to not say someone of something is wrong. I think that is pretty much across the board though. I'm sure there are people on this sight who fully believe something that conflicts with my beliefs but would be unwilling to say I'm wrong. There are Christians out there who are trying to stand against bad or false teachings (Christian ones). Even if this is the case (which I admit it mostly is) it doesn't change whether what we believe is or is not true. It's still to me an example of judging God by the actions of his presumed followers. To me it's an issue of is the Bible right or wrong. Only you can make that decision for yourself.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2013, 11:21:00 pm »
Since it seems this topic is played out, Chris, which point from my initial post would you like to discuss next?

I'd kind of like to talk about what you said were the American "fundamentals of Christianity". Just as a reference, what would you consider to be the difference between American Fundamentals and true Christian Fundamentals?

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2013, 11:33:22 pm »
However I submit to you that even though this is the case, just because some people are "doing it wrong", it doesn't prove that the religion is wrong.

Yes, but it doesn't prove that the religion is right.  Just because democracy works okay in the US, doesn't in fact mean that it works everywhere else.

I think sometimes people look at Christians and hold them up to the highest standard of excellence. Please remember that we are not perfect either. We fail, we do the wrong thing. We sin, we are imperfect beings.

Mileage varies, BigChrisfilm.  I don't hold anyone up to a ruler and decide they are worthless.  Granted, my workplace has had some stellar examples of short term memory problems, bad attitudes, etc, but I do not write them off as people, just people who are fit to do something else.  Besides, have you ever noticed that some folks claiming to have the Holy Spirit living inside them suddenly gives everyone the impression that they should be served as royalty?

I would only implore you and the others on this site not to judge the Christian God by the actions of his presumed followers. We are being shaped a molded into the image of Christ, we don't become it after conversion. My hope is that some of you who knew me can see that change in me now.

Yes, I'm curious as to how you went from "I'm your High Priest and I'll dictate wisdom to you ingrates" to "I'm very Christian, but I'm interested in what you think.  And again, I won't hang the mantle of the past on your shoulders every time you post, but remember you had a stellar reputation before being banned.

Maybe I was not truly converted? Maybe I was too young in the faith? Maybe I was just immature? Not sure really, all I know is we all grow up and our mentality changes. I've had plenty of time and experiences since I first got on this site in 2006 (I think it was). I choose to look at it as the Bible talks about, the difference between Justification and Sanctification.

Justified (Also refereed to as being saved) is when we are converted, or being seen by God as just in his eyes. This is of course because he sees the debt for our sins as being paid by Jesus, and we are seen as completely guiltless. Jesus takes our sins, and the punishment for them. We are seen as perfect because he was perfect. We are then Justified, or Not Guilty.

Sanctification is the acted of being transformed day by day into the image of Jesus Christ. This is not something that happens the moment we are converted, it is progressive and lasts for the rest of our lives. I believe that is why I seem more mature, at least I'm hoping that I do as this is one of the proofs that we are in the faith.

Please don't think that I'm saying I'm perfect. It's actually quite the opposite. If I were perfect I wouldn't need to be saved, and I continue to everyday make stupid mistakes. I'm just like all of you, no better than anyone one here.

Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Jesus never mentions anything about professing belief?
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2013, 12:26:55 am »
As I said in my original post, there are only two teachings that I consider essential to Jesus' ministry: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Now, before I continue, I'd like to make clear that I know the things I'm about to list aren't universals, nor are they exclusive to American Christianity. They're just the things that I see as sticking out particularly badly.

Enforcing Christianity as a state religion-You see this in such things as Ten Commandment monuments at government buildings, attempts to force Christian prayer in schools and government functions, and this quote:  http://www.fstdt.net/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=63730. This is in direct opposition to the First Amendment, the writings of Thomas Jefferson and the Treaty of Tripoli, just to name a few. There's even a political party specifically dedicated to replacing the government with a Christian theocracy; ironically, they call themselves the Constitution Party.

Opposition to homosexual rights - Most states have no laws protecting people from being discriminated against for their sexual orientation, and conservative Christians fight hard to keep it that way. The tide is turning...a recent poll revealed that 59% of gay-marriage opponents think that full legalization is inevitable...but the fact that people still think it's somehow their business what consenting adults do in private, or that certain people deserve to be treated as second-class citizens, says nothing good.

Opposition to women's rights-More and more states are trying to throw up roadblocks to legalized abortion, including in cases of rape and incest. The fact that many anti-choice activists are willing to make exceptions for rape and incest shows that it's not an issue of "pro-life", but an issue of trying to enforce a particular sexual morality, which not everyone is going to agree with.

Opposition to governmental assistance for the needy, the myth of the "self-made man"-The vast majority of such opposition comes from conservatives, who pepper their speeches with appeals to Christianity in the form of wedge issues like abortion and gay marriage. In addition, there's the phenomenon of the "prosperity gospel", which claims that God rewards his faithful with wealth. Look at conservative outrage over Obama's "didn't build that" quote, which was taken out of context. In context, he was pointing out that any private business relies on publicly-funded infrastructure like roads and plumbing.

Opposition to science-This comes in many forms, ranging from attempting to teach creationism in public schools to opposition to genetic research that could potentially lead to cures for many diseases and disorders. The vitriol against science that you see in many quotes on this site is only a small example; with the understanding that anecdotes are not evidence, I've run into dozens of people in real life who flatly oppose scientific research, particularly genetic research, often making the claim that science produces nothing good, while ignoring the incredible benefits science has brought to everyone's life.

This is just a short list of the things I see as the worst aspects of American Christianity. Like I said, none of these are exclusive to America, and they don't apply to all Christians in America, but they're the points that the vocal minority who the media treat as "real" Christians tend to emphasize the most.

On an unrelated note, it's bad form to make multiple posts in a row. If you want to reply to multiple people at once, reply to them all in a single post; cut-and-paste their quotes if you want. Posting multiple posts in a row just takes up space on the board.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 10:05:38 am by R. U. Sirius »
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