FSTDT Forums
Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: rageaholic on February 25, 2012, 12:13:15 pm
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Why are so many fundies insistant upon using the King James Bible? Isn't it more difficult to read? (all the thee and thous).
The only reason I can think of is the time (shortly after the reformation). But maybe there's something more to it.
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Why are so many fundies insistant upon using the King James Bible? Isn't it more difficult to read? (all the thee and thous).
The only reason I can think of is the time (shortly after the reformation). But maybe there's something more to it.
Its all the archaic words. To fundies those words are a mark of holiness. Anyone spewing 17th century sounding terminology MUST be holy, and thus must be obeyed.
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Why are so many fundies insistant upon using the King James Bible? Isn't it more difficult to read? (all the thee and thous).
The only reason I can think of is the time (shortly after the reformation). But maybe there's something more to it.
Methinks thou dost protest too much. Thou doth wish it t'was thee that was holy!
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Yeah, I was about to say, I think they think it makes it sound smarter.
In reality, it's redundant gibberish. They could probably cut about 800 pages if God would stop talking about what he's going to do before he does it.
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I tried reading the King James version once. I went back to Shakespeare for more entertaining reading after about three pages.
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That's what I usually point to as an example of something that is actually GOOD written in Ye Olde Englishe.
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Off-topic: Personally I think Shakespeare was a hack who got very lucky.
On-topic: There are minor differences in certain passages. I don't have the list in front of me at the moment, and I don't really care to look it up, but the biggest difference is that the King James Version has some of the laws regarding divorce slightly modified. This was done so that some old king could divorce his wife (hence, King James Bible). Now, if you're thinking to yourself "doesn't the bible have rules against editing it?" Well, yes, which is why the New King James Version reverts those changes but preserves the archaic words. Future translations like NIV are based on the NKJV, not the KJV.
As for why fundies insist on the KJV and not the NKJV... fuck if I know.
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Off-topic: Personally I think Shakespeare was a hack who got very lucky.
Incredibly unlikely for multiple reasons:
1. His works have withstood the test of time.
2. It's often-theorized that his plays are the work of a playwrite who couldn't get his ideas accepted using his real name.
3. His Tropes suggest that he knew his audience, & could entertain both high & low society at the same time.
Are his stories the most complicated, original plots ever? Certainly not. Probably not even in his day. But that isn't the only mark of literary quality, & could very well have been intentional.
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Wasn't the Book of Mormon written in extremely flowery language because "thees" and "thous" make it sound all archaic and holy?
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Some door-to-door lady dropped off a Book of Mormon the other day... had we not thrown it out the day we got it, I could answer that question. >_>
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Why are so many fundies insistant upon using the King James Bible? Isn't it more difficult to read? (all the thee and thous).
The only reason I can think of is the time (shortly after the reformation). But maybe there's something more to it.
Its all the archaic words. To fundies those words are a mark of holiness. Anyone spewing 17th century sounding terminology MUST be holy, and thus must be obeyed.
LOL I always got annoyed by people who talked like that. I always want to respond with...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_mDTLphIVY
Same with Christianese.
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Ugh, count me in on that. Shakespeare, the Bible, FFXII, so many things get immediate praise just because they sound like Old English. And if you don't like it, you must just not understand. Because it's so DEEP.
I can't say I know what Christianese is, though.
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Wasn't the Book of Mormon written in extremely flowery language because "thees" and "thous" make it sound all archaic and holy?
So was a lot of the original Gardnerian Wiccan Book of Shadows, which actually only dates back to the 1950's.
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Well one of the reasons that I have been told is that the KJV is the "original" and "accurate" version. That is, it is the oldest English translation of the Bible from Latin. many put their faith in this text and claim that newer translations or versions of the Bible are corrupt. This isn't correct by the way but many argue that the KJV is the closest they can get to the Bible being "true."
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You know, I don't actually know why the KJV is preferred. Maybe it's the only Bible that has the crazier verses that they love to use?
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Well one of the reasons that I have been told is that the KJV is the "original" and "accurate" version. That is, it is the oldest English translation of the Bible from Latin. many put their faith in this text and claim that newer translations or versions of the Bible are corrupt. This isn't correct by the way but many argue that the KJV is the closest they can get to the Bible being "true."
This. Basically, people want to use the oldest version they can read, but are usually too lazy to learn other languages. So they will latch onto and defend the one they can with the most intense zeal they can.
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My high school English teacher once said the KJV was the only good thing to come as the result of a committee. :D I think it's just because it's got a poetic sound and we've heard that version for years and furthermore it sounds more pretentious. I mean, which sounds better, this:
1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
or this:
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
It just sounds more poetic. Actually, if you read it as archaic poetry and not as sacred text, it's actually quite calming.
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The second one sounds way better. "Maketh me to"? Was that EVER proper English?
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The second one sounds way better. "Maketh me to"? Was that EVER proper English?
Yes, it was, and it flows better when read. Seriously, read the two out loud. The second one is more of a mish-mash of words.
I dislike a lot of modern re-writes because all I see the old passages worth for is as old-style poetry.
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I have heard that some people believed KJV to be the original version. XD
I guess reading the original versions would be difficult as you would need to know Hebrew, Aramaic, and Classical Greek and understand that the difficulty translating any of those. Heck, it's difficult translating Classical Greek into Modern Greek.
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The second one is more of a mish-mash of words.
...No, it reads like an actual fucking sentence. I mean, it's not going to be winning any awards any time soon, but it beats "maketh me to lie down" by a longshot, & as for the rest of it, I don't see how it's so fucking artsy to replace s's with th's.
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I think that the Bible should be translated by non-Christian scholars of ancient Hebrew and Greek so that as little bias as possible leaks through.
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The second one is more of a mish-mash of words.
...No, it reads like an actual fucking sentence. I mean, it's not going to be winning any awards any time soon, but it beats "maketh me to lie down" by a longshot, & as for the rest of it, I don't see how it's so fucking artsy to replace s's with th's.
It's not artsy, it's about word flow. The KJV bible was designed not only with translation in mind, but the placement and order of the words to facilitate the same cadence as most poetic sonnets. The intention, at the time, was to use the speech of their times, organize it in a well spaced manner, so as to make speaking and reciting the language a pleasurable experience. Most modern translations do not take this much time or consideration, being far more concerned with finding a more accurate translation - which in and of itself is as futile as finding proof of Gawd - than trying to make the reading one that meshes with the language of our times. Say what you will about the merits of using ancient English for modern times, but I'd rather read and speak something that sounds a little old and has some bounce to it, than something that sounds and reads as about exciting as a science text book.
I also don't see why you have to use such harsh language when we're debating the merits of using out of date English. It's hardly worth getting angry over.
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And I hardly see how it's worth getting so pretentious over, but here we are.
Also, it flows about as well as my stool.
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Hoo boy... Lithp, what are you doing?
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I have heard that some people believed KJV to be the original version. XD
I guess reading the original versions would be difficult as you would need to know Hebrew, Aramaic, and Classical Greek and understand that the difficulty translating any of those. Heck, it's difficult translating Classical Greek into Modern Greek.
The NT is written in Koine/Common Greek, not Classical Greek :-P
My 2 cents to the poetics question as a non-native English speaker: Taking the samples smurfetteprinciple posted, I think I would like something between them best. Ending the verbs with -th just looks screwy, and 'valley of the shadow of death' is at least one particle too many. On the other hand, 'I lack nothing' is so much 'I shall not want''s inferior it's not even funny.
So: take the best of both worlds and be satisfied with it.
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Hoo boy... Lithp, what are you doing?
He wants to start shit.
And Lithp, it's not that the KJV replaced "s" with "th." It's that English, in the centuries since, has replaced all those "eth"s with "s".
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I have heard that some people believed KJV to be the original version. XD
If by some you mean quite a lot, then yes, you are correct. I know of people who believe English is God's language and whites are God's people. And that the calender is the way it is because Jesus said so in the Bible, and that was a high school girl that said that (she also always talks about why the rest of the world has such weird names for place).
We need an exasperated eye roll smiley bad.
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I thought the KJV was a big deal because it was one of the first books in what is considered modern english
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Hoo boy... Lithp, what are you doing?
Baiting, apparently. I do appreciate the wonderful imagery in his choice of words. :)
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I thought the KJV was a big deal because it was one of the first books in what is considered modern english
That's about right. English hasn't been static in the four hundred years since, but the written English of 1500, or 1400, would have been virtually as unintelligible to the literate person of 1610 as it is to us. By contrast, we can basically understand the language of 1610.
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I have heard that some people believed KJV to be the original version. XD
If by some you mean quite a lot, then yes, you are correct. I know of people who believe English is God's language and whites are God's people. And that the calender is the way it is because Jesus said so in the Bible, and that was a high school girl that said that (she also always talks about why the rest of the world has such weird names for place).
We need an exasperated eye roll smiley bad.
Seen on an actual bumper sticker:
"If the KJV was good enough for the apostles, then it's good enough for me!"
I knew at 9 why that was stupid.
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In some circles, the KJV is also considered to be the only English translation that was "approved" by god. How they came to that conclusion, I haven't a clue, but I've seen that little factoid repeated by a number of fundies, including a few who have been quoted on the front page.
Also, I rather like the 23rd Psalm, as far as the writing is concerned. Likewise with the "To everything" verses in Ecclesiastes 3. There is no right or wrong, as far as preferences go, but personally, I prefer those passages in their older translations -- like someone else said, the newer ones lack the same "flow".
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The other reason, of course, is that it's largely the version of the bible that the fundies grew up with. When they were taught the bible (or those select portions of it their preacher/parents wanted them to know), it was the good old KJV. To say that a different version is more correct is to say that their beliefs are less correct. That's what gives them the emotional investment.
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I perfer the New American Bible translation, myself. The language is more contemporary but it has a nice KJV poetic flow. The original New King James removes some of the obtuse language though the later edition of NKJV goes back to the "Thees & Thous" schpeil.
The KJV/NKJV is a lovely piece of Middle-Early Modern English literature but to get all "KING JAMES ONLY" is so retarded! It's also, believe it or not, not the best translation as to being in line with the original Koine Greek/Hebrew ancient texts. Fundies love it because it confirms their prejudices. Modern translations word things in more "Religious Moderate" way, many even using "Men & Women" & "People/Persons" instead of "MEN". Also, the "RIGHTEOUS WRATH & FURY OF ALMIGHTY GAAAAWWWWDDD" is really more pronounced in "YE OLDE KING JAMES ENGLISHE!". Really! Read the passages where "God's" being a fascist goatfuck Demiurge in King James then read the same passage in a modern translation. The KJV reeks of sulphuric compounds! On the other hand, the nicer passages in KJV English are very soothing & beautiful. Frankly, the NT is the old part of the Bible I can get through. No offense to the Jewish people but NT God seems a lot saner & Jesus was one cool dude!
Though I consider myself Wiccan, I respect Christianity...provided that IT'S actually followed! True Christianity, as Jesus taught, could've changed the world for the better & brought peace to all humanity, all cultures & creeds...with it's message of humility, kindness, peace, charity, compassion, unconditional love, forgiveness, self-control, tolerance & social justice....but the established church ruined it & it became a force of pure horror!
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I perfer the New American Bible translation, myself. The language is more contemporary but it has a nice KJV poetic flow. The original New King James removes some of the obtuse language though the later edition of NKJV goes back to the "Thees & Thous" schpeil.
The KJV/NKJV is a lovely piece of Middle-Early Modern English literature but to get all "KING JAMES ONLY" is so retarded! It's also, believe it or not, not the best translation as to being in line with the original Koine Greek/Hebrew ancient texts. Fundies love it because it confirms their prejudices. Modern translations word things in more "Religious Moderate" way, many even using "Men & Women" & "People/Persons" instead of "MEN". Also, the "RIGHTEOUS WRATH & FURY OF ALMIGHTY GAAAAWWWWDDD" is really more pronounced in "YE OLDE KING JAMES ENGLISHE!". Really! Read the passages where "God's" being a fascist goatfuck Demiurge in King James then read the same passage in a modern translation. The KJV reeks of sulphuric compounds! On the other hand, the nicer passages in KJV English are very soothing & beautiful. Frankly, the NT is the old part of the Bible I can get through. No offense to the Jewish people but NT God seems a lot saner & Jesus was one cool dude!
Though I consider myself Wiccan, I respect Christianity...provided that IT'S actually followed! True Christianity, as Jesus taught, could've changed the world for the better & brought peace to all humanity, all cultures & creeds...with it's message of humility, kindness, peace, charity, compassion, unconditional love, forgiveness, self-control, tolerance & social justice....but the established church ruined it & it became a force of pure horror!
This post make me happy. :)
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I personally prefer the King Jams Version, which is either a really excellent musical rendition or a pair of pajamas decorated with tiny crowns.
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I perfer the New American Bible translation, myself. The language is more contemporary but it has a nice KJV poetic flow. The original New King James removes some of the obtuse language though the later edition of NKJV goes back to the "Thees & Thous" schpeil.
The KJV/NKJV is a lovely piece of Middle-Early Modern English literature but to get all "KING JAMES ONLY" is so retarded! It's also, believe it or not, not the best translation as to being in line with the original Koine Greek/Hebrew ancient texts. Fundies love it because it confirms their prejudices. Modern translations word things in more "Religious Moderate" way, many even using "Men & Women" & "People/Persons" instead of "MEN". Also, the "RIGHTEOUS WRATH & FURY OF ALMIGHTY GAAAAWWWWDDD" is really more pronounced in "YE OLDE KING JAMES ENGLISHE!". Really! Read the passages where "God's" being a fascist goatfuck Demiurge in King James then read the same passage in a modern translation. The KJV reeks of sulphuric compounds! On the other hand, the nicer passages in KJV English are very soothing & beautiful. Frankly, the NT is the old part of the Bible I can get through. No offense to the Jewish people but NT God seems a lot saner & Jesus was one cool dude!
Though I consider myself Wiccan, I respect Christianity...provided that IT'S actually followed! True Christianity, as Jesus taught, could've changed the world for the better & brought peace to all humanity, all cultures & creeds...with it's message of humility, kindness, peace, charity, compassion, unconditional love, forgiveness, self-control, tolerance & social justice....but the established church ruined it & it became a force of pure horror!
A hearty Fuck Yeah from this atheist. :)
I personally prefer the King Jams Version, which is either a really excellent musical rendition or a pair of pajamas decorated with tiny crowns.
And one for you too. :D
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I personally prefer the King Jams Version, which is either a really excellent musical rendition or a pair of pajamas decorated with tiny crowns.
Or delicious on toast.
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I perfer the New American Bible translation, myself. The language is more contemporary but it has a nice KJV poetic flow. The original New King James removes some of the obtuse language though the later edition of NKJV goes back to the "Thees & Thous" schpeil.
The KJV/NKJV is a lovely piece of Middle-Early Modern English literature but to get all "KING JAMES ONLY" is so retarded! It's also, believe it or not, not the best translation as to being in line with the original Koine Greek/Hebrew ancient texts. Fundies love it because it confirms their prejudices. Modern translations word things in more "Religious Moderate" way, many even using "Men & Women" & "People/Persons" instead of "MEN". Also, the "RIGHTEOUS WRATH & FURY OF ALMIGHTY GAAAAWWWWDDD" is really more pronounced in "YE OLDE KING JAMES ENGLISHE!". Really! Read the passages where "God's" being a fascist goatfuck Demiurge in King James then read the same passage in a modern translation. The KJV reeks of sulphuric compounds! On the other hand, the nicer passages in KJV English are very soothing & beautiful. Frankly, the NT is the old part of the Bible I can get through. No offense to the Jewish people but NT God seems a lot saner & Jesus was one cool dude!
Though I consider myself Wiccan, I respect Christianity...provided that IT'S actually followed! True Christianity, as Jesus taught, could've changed the world for the better & brought peace to all humanity, all cultures & creeds...with it's message of humility, kindness, peace, charity, compassion, unconditional love, forgiveness, self-control, tolerance & social justice....but the established church ruined it & it became a force of pure horror!
This post make me happy. :)
*EPIC HUGGIES TO YOU* Thanx!
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I perfer the New American Bible translation, myself. The language is more contemporary but it has a nice KJV poetic flow. The original New King James removes some of the obtuse language though the later edition of NKJV goes back to the "Thees & Thous" schpeil.
The KJV/NKJV is a lovely piece of Middle-Early Modern English literature but to get all "KING JAMES ONLY" is so retarded! It's also, believe it or not, not the best translation as to being in line with the original Koine Greek/Hebrew ancient texts. Fundies love it because it confirms their prejudices. Modern translations word things in more "Religious Moderate" way, many even using "Men & Women" & "People/Persons" instead of "MEN". Also, the "RIGHTEOUS WRATH & FURY OF ALMIGHTY GAAAAWWWWDDD" is really more pronounced in "YE OLDE KING JAMES ENGLISHE!". Really! Read the passages where "God's" being a fascist goatfuck Demiurge in King James then read the same passage in a modern translation. The KJV reeks of sulphuric compounds! On the other hand, the nicer passages in KJV English are very soothing & beautiful. Frankly, the NT is the old part of the Bible I can get through. No offense to the Jewish people but NT God seems a lot saner & Jesus was one cool dude!
Though I consider myself Wiccan, I respect Christianity...provided that IT'S actually followed! True Christianity, as Jesus taught, could've changed the world for the better & brought peace to all humanity, all cultures & creeds...with it's message of humility, kindness, peace, charity, compassion, unconditional love, forgiveness, self-control, tolerance & social justice....but the established church ruined it & it became a force of pure horror!
A hearty Fuck Yeah from this atheist. :)
I personally prefer the King Jams Version, which is either a really excellent musical rendition or a pair of pajamas decorated with tiny crowns.
And one for you too. :D
*EPIC HUGS & HIGH FIVES*