Author Topic: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet  (Read 85083 times)

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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1230 on: April 07, 2018, 10:45:20 am »
Lana, IIRC you said that you have a relative who is trans so I'm going to word this very carefully:

Teenagers in general have a tough time trying to fit in or trying to find out who they are, for trans this is even more so. Going around and claiming that someone who says that they are trans isn't and is merely doing it for the sake of being "cool" is a really dick move. This is made even worse by the fact that they are more likely to suffer from depression ...Gee, turns out that when the society (or even your own family) doesn't accept you for what you are it can cause problems for your mental health?!

I understand where you're coming from, and if this were merely saying "some trans people aren't acksually trans because I personally disapprove of them," I'd be inclined to agree with you. But the person in the cartoon is saying things like "you don't need dysphoria to be trans", "gender is a feeling", and "truscum don't interact." It seems to me like this may not be a case of purity policing, but a case of somebody criticizing "tucute" types who think being trans is some kind of trendy fashion they can put on. I may not be trans myself, but I'm bisexual and pretty heavily involved in LGBT circles, so I think I know about this dispute more than many people. However, I've been wrong before, so if you or somebody else can prove that the artist means to say what you think they're saying, I'll back down on this.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1231 on: April 07, 2018, 12:03:05 pm »
Lana, IIRC you said that you have a relative who is trans so I'm going to word this very carefully:

Teenagers in general have a tough time trying to fit in or trying to find out who they are, for trans this is even more so. Going around and claiming that someone who says that they are trans isn't and is merely doing it for the sake of being "cool" is a really dick move. This is made even worse by the fact that they are more likely to suffer from depression ...Gee, turns out that when the society (or even your own family) doesn't accept you for what you are it can cause problems for your mental health?!

I understand where you're coming from, and if this were merely saying "some trans people aren't acksually trans because I personally disapprove of them," I'd be inclined to agree with you. But the person in the cartoon is saying things like "you don't need dysphoria to be trans", "gender is a feeling", and "truscum don't interact." It seems to me like this may not be a case of purity policing, but a case of somebody criticizing "tucute" types who think being trans is some kind of trendy fashion they can put on. I may not be trans myself, but I'm bisexual and pretty heavily involved in LGBT circles, so I think I know about this dispute more than many people. However, I've been wrong before, so if you or somebody else can prove that the artist means to say what you think they're saying, I'll back down on this.

I think you are factually wrong about the prevalence of people who "think being trans is some kind of trendy fashion they can put on". I'm not going to say they don't exist, there's a lot of people out there, but the majority of people criticised as 'transtrenders' are people who have real gender issues of some sort or another and are trying to use the tools available to them to deal with them, including transition. That they sometimes look or act different from other trans people is entirely meaningless; some trans guys are more masculine than others (much like cis guys). What matters is if their life is improved by transition, a question this view entirely sidesteps in favour of checking to see if they conform to stereotypes.

It kind of reminds me of the autogynephilia bullshit used against a group of bisexual or lesbian trans women who don't fit the existing stereotypes that you see by looking at primarily straight trans women. It's interesting how when they don't like AFAB people calling themselves trans they dismiss them as silly children who are following a fashion trend, and when they don't like AMAB people calling themselves trans they dismiss us as sexual deviants (a gendered pattern replicated in attitudes towards cis gay people).

'Transtrenders' is a word used to police conformity to an established narrative about gender in trans people, in the same way heteronormative society treats the entire LGBT+ community, and it's an attitude that should have no place in queer spaces.

Also: you don't need dysphoria to be trans, gender can accurately be described as a feeling, and avoiding 'truscum' is an entirely sensible attitude.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 12:05:53 pm by Sigmaleph »
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1232 on: April 07, 2018, 12:36:06 pm »
Lana, IIRC you said that you have a relative who is trans so I'm going to word this very carefully:

Teenagers in general have a tough time trying to fit in or trying to find out who they are, for trans this is even more so. Going around and claiming that someone who says that they are trans isn't and is merely doing it for the sake of being "cool" is a really dick move. This is made even worse by the fact that they are more likely to suffer from depression ...Gee, turns out that when the society (or even your own family) doesn't accept you for what you are it can cause problems for your mental health?!

I understand where you're coming from, and if this were merely saying "some trans people aren't acksually trans because I personally disapprove of them," I'd be inclined to agree with you. But the person in the cartoon is saying things like "you don't need dysphoria to be trans", "gender is a feeling", and "truscum don't interact." It seems to me like this may not be a case of purity policing, but a case of somebody criticizing "tucute" types who think being trans is some kind of trendy fashion they can put on. I may not be trans myself, but I'm bisexual and pretty heavily involved in LGBT circles, so I think I know about this dispute more than many people. However, I've been wrong before, so if you or somebody else can prove that the artist means to say what you think they're saying, I'll back down on this.

I think you are factually wrong about the prevalence of people who "think being trans is some kind of trendy fashion they can put on". I'm not going to say they don't exist, there's a lot of people out there, but the majority of people criticised as 'transtrenders' are people who have real gender issues of some sort or another and are trying to use the tools available to them to deal with them, including transition. That they sometimes look or act different from other trans people is entirely meaningless; some trans guys are more masculine than others (much like cis guys). What matters is if their life is improved by transition, a question this view entirely sidesteps in favour of checking to see if they conform to stereotypes.

It kind of reminds me of the autogynephilia bullshit used against a group of bisexual or lesbian trans women who don't fit the existing stereotypes that you see by looking at primarily straight trans women. It's interesting how when they don't like AFAB people calling themselves trans they dismiss them as silly children who are following a fashion trend, and when they don't like AMAB people calling themselves trans they dismiss us as sexual deviants (a gendered pattern replicated in attitudes towards cis gay people).

'Transtrenders' is a word used to police conformity to an established narrative about gender in trans people, in the same way heteronormative society treats the entire LGBT+ community, and it's an attitude that should have no place in queer spaces.

You have valid points about the misuse of the term "transtrender," but I think you might be overcorrecting a little. While it has been misapplied to transgender people who don't conform to certain ideas of how a trans person "should" be, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is the majority of cases of its use, nor that it's its primary purpose.

Also: you don't need dysphoria to be trans, gender can accurately be described as a feeling, and 'truscum' are wrong.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this, because I have yet to see any solid scientific or medical evidence for this claim. Quite the contrary, countless studies appear to support the "truscum" stance on what is required to be trans. I believe I discussed studies on the brains of pre-transition transgender people that point to differences in brain structure as the root cause of being trans. This seems to indicate that being trans is more than just a "feeling." Rather, it seems like there are biological causes for being trans. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I'm wrong, like the geologists who doubted Alfred Wegener's theories on continental drift. And I don't like people who mistreat tucutes simply for their views and opinions. But until I see firm evidence otherwise, I'm going to respectfully disagree with tucutes and their supporters.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 12:43:48 pm by Lana Reverse »
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1233 on: April 07, 2018, 01:42:59 pm »
Also: you don't need dysphoria to be trans, gender can accurately be described as a feeling, and 'truscum' are wrong.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this, because I have yet to see any solid scientific or medical evidence for this claim. Quite the contrary, countless studies appear to support the "truscum" stance on what is required to be trans. I believe I discussed studies on the brains of pre-transition transgender people that point to differences in brain structure as the root cause of being trans. This seems to indicate that being trans is more than just a "feeling." Rather, it seems like there are biological causes for being trans. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I'm wrong, like the geologists who doubted Alfred Wegener's theories on continental drift. And I don't like people who mistreat tucutes simply for their views and opinions. But until I see firm evidence otherwise, I'm going to respectfully disagree with tucutes and their supporters.

I am not making a medical claim, because I don't think being trans is a medical condition.

To be clear: there are studies suggesting people who transition tend to have different brain structures than people of their ASAB, yes. There are almost certainly underlying biological causes for people deciding to transition. But being trans is not the same thing as those causes; being trans is a reaction to internal experiences of gender.

I think reifying the idea that trans people are just 'brain intersex' is a mistake. If tomorrow a new and better study comes out disproving that theory, my position on trans people's rights will remain unchanged. If someone decides to scan everyone and it turns out a bunch of people who have happily transitioned and think their lives have been improved by it don't have the specific brain structures... then what? Do we revoke their trans license? Tell them 'Sorry, ScienceTM says you are really a member of your ASAB and not True Trans after all, please stop HRT immediately and change your name back'?

No. We don't. I believe transition is about taking ownership of your own self and body and living a life that makes you happier, and there are probably biological factors correlated with being the kind of person whose life is improved by transition, but there's no reason to limit it to people with those biological correlates. It's possible that in the future we will find out that we can predict with much more accuracy who will and won't be happier after transition, and that will be interesting, but we are not there yet and might never be.

And as long as that doesn't happen, literally the only guide we have to whether people will be happier or not transitioning is their internal feelings about their gender.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1234 on: April 07, 2018, 04:11:35 pm »
Also: you don't need dysphoria to be trans, gender can accurately be described as a feeling, and 'truscum' are wrong.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this, because I have yet to see any solid scientific or medical evidence for this claim. Quite the contrary, countless studies appear to support the "truscum" stance on what is required to be trans. I believe I discussed studies on the brains of pre-transition transgender people that point to differences in brain structure as the root cause of being trans. This seems to indicate that being trans is more than just a "feeling." Rather, it seems like there are biological causes for being trans. I'm willing to entertain the possibility that I'm wrong, like the geologists who doubted Alfred Wegener's theories on continental drift. And I don't like people who mistreat tucutes simply for their views and opinions. But until I see firm evidence otherwise, I'm going to respectfully disagree with tucutes and their supporters.

I am not making a medical claim, because I don't think being trans is a medical condition.

To be clear: there are studies suggesting people who transition tend to have different brain structures than people of their ASAB, yes. There are almost certainly underlying biological causes for people deciding to transition. But being trans is not the same thing as those causes; being trans is a reaction to internal experiences of gender.

I think reifying the idea that trans people are just 'brain intersex' is a mistake. If tomorrow a new and better study comes out disproving that theory, my position on trans people's rights will remain unchanged. If someone decides to scan everyone and it turns out a bunch of people who have happily transitioned and think their lives have been improved by it don't have the specific brain structures... then what? Do we revoke their trans license? Tell them 'Sorry, ScienceTM says you are really a member of your ASAB and not True Trans after all, please stop HRT immediately and change your name back'?

No. We don't. I believe transition is about taking ownership of your own self and body and living a life that makes you happier, and there are probably biological factors correlated with being the kind of person whose life is improved by transition, but there's no reason to limit it to people with those biological correlates. It's possible that in the future we will find out that we can predict with much more accuracy who will and won't be happier after transition, and that will be interesting, but we are not there yet and might never be.

And as long as that doesn't happen, literally the only guide we have to whether people will be happier or not transitioning is their internal feelings about their gender.

Okay, so we have very different ideas on what it means to be trans. The idea that you can be trans without having gender dysphoria or wanting to transition seems strange to me, but then again, when it comes to trans people, I'm an outsider looking in. So because of that, I don't think I can pass judgment on your ideas on what makes somebody trans. At the end of the day, I'm just happy we can disagree without ripping each others' throats out.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1235 on: April 07, 2018, 05:34:58 pm »
Also an outsider looking in, but while I've seen the not wanting to transition part, the lack of dysphoria while still being trans is a bit strange to me.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1236 on: April 07, 2018, 06:14:11 pm »
Is there any difference between the purity policing cartoon and TERF's arguments? Those being that gender is down to a set of immutable biological characteristics and "you can't have mine."

Just seems like another pack of wankers trying to divide the world into star bellied and non star bellied sneetches to me!

Offline Kanzenkankaku

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1237 on: April 08, 2018, 04:01:55 am »
Also an outsider looking in, but while I've seen the not wanting to transition part, the lack of dysphoria while still being trans is a bit strange to me.

Insider here. There's plenty of valid reasons to not transition in spite of feeling trans/having dysphoria. On the other hand, I never understood the people saying you don't need to have gender dysphoria/GID. I just can't imagine why you would want to transition if it wasn't to fix the things you feel the need fix to live as yourself. It's difficult and a lot of people are dicks to you about it and you get discriminated against and it costs money.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1238 on: April 08, 2018, 08:25:54 pm »
Also an outsider looking in, but while I've seen the not wanting to transition part, the lack of dysphoria while still being trans is a bit strange to me.

In general, people who argue about not needing dysphoria to be trans talk about 'gender euphoria', i.e. they aren't miserable in the gender they were assigned at birth but think they'd be much happier as a different one.

I suspect there's no clear cut distinction between the two and people with the same experiences might frame them in different ways. I've known trans people who thought they had little or no dysphoria and then after their first attempts at transition go 'oh. that was dysphoria' because they can actually recognise it once it's gone or diminished.

(I spent a long time telling myself I wasn't really trans and ignoring my issues with my gender. I do have dysphoria, but I was in denial about it)

Taking that into account, I think it doesn't matter if the gender euphoria theory is correct or not. People who want to transition usually have a pretty good reason, even if they can't or don't want to think of it as gender dysphoria. So policing people who say they are trans but not dysphoric is, I think, counterproductive. If transition really isn't the right choice for them they'll find out on their own.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1239 on: April 09, 2018, 11:27:23 pm »
Beware those who hate the rich more than they love the poor.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1240 on: April 09, 2018, 11:31:33 pm »
Personally, I really feel for all those Jews who lost their free accommodations and cremation services in 1945. Those people just can't catch a break.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1241 on: April 10, 2018, 08:44:34 am »

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1242 on: April 10, 2018, 09:14:57 am »
I guess he's technically correct. As we all know, that's the best kind of correct.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1243 on: April 10, 2018, 05:58:54 pm »
Still not letting the bastard near any puppies or kittens. You can get those in a pet shop.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Not-Good Things People Say on the Internet
« Reply #1244 on: April 12, 2018, 11:32:11 pm »
Beware those who hate the rich more than they love the poor.