Author Topic: Yet another new drug  (Read 11124 times)

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Offline rookie

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2012, 01:39:02 pm »
Even the really nasty stuff should be legal, but there should be different controls based on the type of drug.  Any increase in use (if it even does increase) is more than offset by the increase in safety because of known dosage/purity, medical supervision, etc.  All prohibition does is make drugs more dangerous.

Out of curiosity, how do we know users will use "government" drugs? Even if they are safer, how do you get past the institutional mistrust? And how do you prevent homemade drugs undercutting the legal stuff?
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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2012, 01:45:14 pm »
Even the really nasty stuff should be legal, but there should be different controls based on the type of drug.  Any increase in use (if it even does increase) is more than offset by the increase in safety because of known dosage/purity, medical supervision, etc.  All prohibition does is make drugs more dangerous.

Out of curiosity, how do we know users will use "government" drugs? Even if they are safer, how do you get past the institutional mistrust? And how do you prevent homemade drugs undercutting the legal stuff?

Leave the taxes and margin on the product low enough that home making them is difficult to turn a profit on. Despite the taxes on cigarettes people don't roll their own despite the rather ready availability of the materials(even filters if you know where to look). And few people are stupid enough to intentionally buy knock off cigarettes. May wind up with them anyway thanks to counterfeiters, but still.

Mass production can do the damndest things to cottage industries.

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2012, 02:47:00 pm »
Even the really nasty stuff should be legal, but there should be different controls based on the type of drug.  Any increase in use (if it even does increase) is more than offset by the increase in safety because of known dosage/purity, medical supervision, etc.  All prohibition does is make drugs more dangerous.

Out of curiosity, how do we know users will use "government" drugs? Even if they are safer, how do you get past the institutional mistrust? And how do you prevent homemade drugs undercutting the legal stuff?

Since nobody buys booze from the Mafia any more, I think it's safe to say most people prefer to get their mind-altering substances legit.

shykid

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2012, 06:53:05 pm »
Quote
Witnesses described the 17-year-old boy as "shaking, growling, foaming at the mouth." According to police reports, Elijah Stai was at a McDonald's with his friend when he began to feel ill. Soon after, he "started to smash his head against the ground" and began acting "possessed," according to a witness. Two hours later, he had stopped breathing.
Jesus Christ...
"Smiles" is one hell of a euphemism for this one. If krokodil originated here, what would it be called? "Sunshine and Butterflies"?

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2012, 08:28:31 pm »
Maybe they thought it was going to be like that chemical that made the Joker's face contort into a permanent smile.  ...Maybe.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2012, 08:30:54 pm »
Here's what I want to ask: you're saying that banning drugs doesn't make them less expensive or available, okay fine. How come?
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Offline rookie

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2012, 08:41:34 pm »
Here's what I want to ask: you're saying that banning drugs doesn't make them less expensive or available, okay fine. How come?

Who were you asking?
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2012, 08:43:30 pm »
Here's what I want to ask: you're saying that banning drugs doesn't make them less expensive or available, okay fine. How come?

Who were you asking?

TigerHunter et al.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Yaezakura

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2012, 09:04:43 pm »
Here's what I want to ask: you're saying that banning drugs doesn't make them less expensive or available, okay fine. How come?

Because any time people want something, people will step in to sell it. One need only look at Prohibition to see that in action--not only did that not stop people consuming alcohol, it spawned NASCAR. I think we can all agree humanity as a whole is worse off for that.

I mean, the fact that any of these illegal drugs are available at all should be proof enough that making them illegal does pretty much nothing to stop their production or sale. Name any given illegal drug, and I could have some of it within 10 minutes if I wanted. It's just that instead of 10 well-regulated production facilities delivering safety-tested products, you end up with 1,000 garage setups cranking out shit laced with whatever happened to be on hand. Since those are the only things available, it's what people buy.

Offline rookie

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2012, 09:16:09 pm »
People are going to do what they want, no matter what. Legal or not. This is very true. And there isn't anyone here who can argue that. But hard drugs are, well, you've seen what they do, right? You've seen how the people on them end up, right?

ETA: That's for anyone in the legalize everything crowd.
The difference between 0 and 1 is infinite. The difference between 1 and a million is a matter of degree. - Zack Johnson

Quote from: davedan board=pg thread=6573 post=218058 time=1286247542
I'll stop eating beef lamb and pork the same day they start letting me eat vegetarians.

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2012, 09:33:52 pm »
People are going to do what they want, no matter what. Legal or not. This is very true. And there isn't anyone here who can argue that. But hard drugs are, well, you've seen what they do, right? You've seen how the people on them end up, right?

ETA: That's for anyone in the legalize everything crowd.

Well, that's openly irrational. "Maybe we can't do anything, maybe trying to do anything will just make it worse, but we should do it anyway- because drugs are bad!" Irrational. Strawman argument. Nobody is disputing that drugs are bad. They're saying there's nothing effective we can do.

Here's what I want to ask: you're saying that banning drugs doesn't make them less expensive or available, okay fine. How come?

Because any time people want something, people will step in to sell it.

If you reduce the supply of something (by banning it and enforcing that ban), it will become more expensive and fewer people will be able to use it. You're not necessarily going to end all use of illegal drugs, but you will reduce their use.

If you're saying the drug market isn't like a regular market, you're going to have to explain why.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline TigerHunter

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2012, 10:19:39 pm »
They're saying there's nothing effective we can do.
There is something effective we can do. I'm not saying "people can still get drugs even though they're illegal, therefore we should legalize drugs", because that doesn't make sense. People still commit murder, but that doesn't mean we should legalize that. What I'm saying is that if we want to stop people from using drugs, it's been proven that there are better ways to do that than sending people to jail for using them. And also that people don't deserve to go to jail for smoking a joint, or even shooting heroin.

Quote
If you reduce the supply of something (by banning it and enforcing that ban), it will become more expensive and fewer people will be able to use it. You're not necessarily going to end all use of illegal drugs, but you will reduce their use.

If you're saying the drug market isn't like a regular market, you're going to have to explain why.
I don't deny that banning drugs makes them more expensive, what I'm saying is that the evidence (see the link I already provided) shows that drug use decreases when it's approached as a medical rather than criminal problem. Also, the effects of criminalization, e.g. organized crime, are unacceptable. Even if decriminalization raised drug use, which the evidence shows that it doesn't, I would still support legalization, for the simple fact that we'd no longer have people killing each other over drugs.

Offline davedan

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2012, 11:52:35 pm »
Apart from the fact that banning things and enforcing the ban has been shown to be ineffective in actually reducing supply. Prohibition is a great case study on it. From what I understand alcohol consumption went up in the US during prohibition.

Banning a substance for which there is a market does not eliminate supply. It does increase price as supply drops. Supply then picks up as the price increases and people are prepared to take greater risks for it.

Besides which I dispute that drugs are bad. I do not believe that drugs are worse than the prohibition of drugs.

On another note, people don't use drugs necessarily because their lives are bad. They do them because they are fun. Except for Krokadil that's just for junkies who can't afford heroin.


Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2012, 12:11:36 am »
Because any time people want something, people will step in to sell it. One need only look at Prohibition to see that in action--not only did that not stop people consuming alcohol, it spawned NASCAR. I think we can all agree humanity as a whole is worse off for that.

:'(

Offline Yaezakura

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Re: Yet another new drug
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2012, 04:35:51 am »
Because any time people want something, people will step in to sell it. One need only look at Prohibition to see that in action--not only did that not stop people consuming alcohol, it spawned NASCAR. I think we can all agree humanity as a whole is worse off for that.

:'(

In all fairness? The sport consumes shit-tons of a limited, pollution-causing resource just to let people drive around in circles. I mean, that's literally the entire thing.