Author Topic: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants  (Read 29900 times)

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Offline Ranger_Joe

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 11:03:38 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
If its Santorum's version of God, not everyone is fucked

Ok, well if we are going to do that, then we have to use their specifics. Yahweh is all knowing and all powerful.

If his version was absolutely correct, I would still not agree with it because it goes against what is good and decent in my mind. Any God who creates people to suffer for eternity or puts them in these horrible situations is an evil god undeserving of worship. If that means that I have to suffer for eternity after I die, then so be it. I will not bow to a tyrant and acknowledge the degradation and oppression of certain people because of the choices they make.

Good enough? Or should I list the many reasons why the Bible is a vile, vile source of personal morals?
Someone else missing my point, I wasn't asking for a defence or justification of your personal theology, I asked a straight forward question, have you ever considered that Santorum may be right? Yes or no?

You are shifting your question. You said "I think you're missing my point, what if, hypothetically, his religious convictions are correct? That is, there is a God, and He thinks the way Santorum thinks He does?"

With my above response, I said exactly the way I felt in the event he was hypothetically correct. Then, you stated I missed your point and the question changed to "Have you ever considered him right? Yes or no?"

The above was my response to your hypothetical question, and then my second was an answer to your yes or no question. I do not believe I am missing the point at all.
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 11:05:50 am »
If there is a god - were all fucked!

I don't mean just the atheists - by definition, we all seem to start life completely fucked anyway, born out of sin etc., etc.
If its Santorum's version of God, not everyone is fucked

Ok, well if we are going to do that, then we have to use their specifics. Yahweh is all knowing and all powerful.

If his version was absolutely correct, I would still not agree with it because it goes against what is good and decent in my mind. Any God who creates people to suffer for eternity or puts them in these horrible situations is an evil god undeserving of worship. If that means that I have to suffer for eternity after I die, then so be it. I will not bow to a tyrant and acknowledge the degradation and oppression of certain people because of the choices they make.

Good enough? Or should I list the many reasons why the Bible is a vile, vile source of personal morals?
Someone else missing my point, I wasn't asking for a defence or justification of your personal theology, I asked a straight forward question, have you ever considered that Santorum may be right? Yes or no?

You are shifting your question. You said "I think you're missing my point, what if, hypothetically, his religious convictions are correct? That is, there is a God, and He thinks the way Santorum thinks He does?"

With my above response, I said exactly the way I felt in the event he was hypothetically correct. Then, you stated I missed your point and the question changed to "Have you ever considered him right? Yes or no?"

The above was my response to your hypothetical question, and then my second was an answer to your yes or no question. I do not believe I am missing the point at all.
Quote
No. If he is, however, see above.
answered the question perfectly satisfactorally, thank you.
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Offline TheL

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2012, 05:34:56 pm »
Ever stop to consider that Santorum may be right?

Right about what?
Anything? Everything? For a brief moment, imagine that his idea of God and morality is the correct one. Now, if you're sure it's not, why not?

He's a crazy fundie is not by itself a satisfactory answer.

1.  Two adult men having consensual sex with each other is NOT the same as a man raping a dog.  Santorum says that it is.

2.  Two adult women living together in a romantic relationship is NOT the same thing as an adult molesting a child.  Santorum says that it is.

3.  A drug company charging thousands of dollars for life-saving medication is NOT the same thing as Apple charging $900 for a luxury item (an iPad).  Santorum says that it is.

4.  Santorum says that birth control pills should not be covered by insurance because that would encourage promiscuity and violate Catholic religious freedom.  98% of Catholic women have used birth control pills, either for contraceptive purposes or to treat hormonal imbalances.  Many women (myself among them) who use BCPs are not sexually active, and many women have written in to Santorum and to women's health blogs about how difficult it is for them to afford their medication.


Is that enough immorality for you, sir?
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Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2012, 05:48:22 pm »
Ever stop to consider that Santorum may be right?

Right about what?
Anything? Everything? For a brief moment, imagine that his idea of God and morality is the correct one. Now, if you're sure it's not, why not?

He's a crazy fundie is not by itself a satisfactory answer.

1.  Two adult men having consensual sex with each other is NOT the same as a man raping a dog.  Santorum says that it is.

2.  Two adult women living together in a romantic relationship is NOT the same thing as an adult molesting a child.  Santorum says that it is.

3.  A drug company charging thousands of dollars for life-saving medication is NOT the same thing as Apple charging $900 for a luxury item (an iPad).  Santorum says that it is.

4.  Santorum says that birth control pills should not be covered by insurance because that would encourage promiscuity and violate Catholic religious freedom.  98% of Catholic women have used birth control pills, either for contraceptive purposes or to treat hormonal imbalances.  Many women (myself among them) who use BCPs are not sexually active, and many women have written in to Santorum and to women's health blogs about how difficult it is for them to afford their medication.


Is that enough immorality for you, sir?

This.

Wanting equal treatment is not the same an orgy but Santorum claims it is. His views are wrong in that he bases it on what he think God wants. But not everyone agrees that it is what God wants, nor do people think that what God wants has any relevance to law.
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2012, 08:20:54 pm »
What if he's right about what God wants?
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2012, 08:55:02 pm »
Then we're all fucked.

Ironbite-where the hell are you going with this Podkayne?

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2012, 09:01:12 pm »
What if he's right about what God wants?
Frankly, then God can go fuck himself.

Or, to be a little bit more polite and explain it a bit better "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's." A lovely line from God's own infallible book, spoken by his own son. You live by the rules of the land you live in and you keep your religious covenant to yourself. The U.S. has as one of the fundamental rules of  its creation has chosen to separate church and state. You are in violation of God's will by trying to impose God's will there. Therefore what God wants is moot.

Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2012, 09:09:01 pm »
What if he's right about what God wants?

Then we should kill God. Lucifer seems to be a lot more powerful and sane, we use his power to take over. Got a better idea?
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Offline Shane for Wax

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2012, 09:12:25 pm »
What if he's right about what God wants?


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Offline gyeonghwa

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2012, 09:37:06 pm »
What if he's right about what God wants?

That's inconsequential. We have secular laws that are in place regardless of a divinity. And:

Frankly, then God can go fuck himself.

^My sentiments.

But this Pascal's Wager is disingenuous at best. What if Santorum's idea of God is right? Well, what if the Aztecs were right and all this time we were pissing of the will of Quetzalcoatl? What if we're all wrong? What if indeed God fucking loves us queers? It cuts both ways.

Edit: Fact is that Santorum stance on gay and women's right as well as his economic stance is abhorrent.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 09:44:32 pm by gyeonghwa »
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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2012, 02:58:13 am »
Then we're all fucked.

Ironbite-where the hell are you going with this Podkayne?

Its an exercise in open mindedness. I'm not asking for a defence of your theological position, I only asked if you had ever considered Santorum might be right. I'm not suggesting Santorum is actually, factually correct, I'm just asking if people had so uch as considered the possibility that he may be. Because if you can't consider the other side's point of view, I'm sorry, but that means your own beliefs are fundamentalist dogma of a sort. So even if correct, you are behaving like a fundie. But I'm now getting members who totally missed my point sending me abusive hate mail by PM, so forget it.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2012, 03:12:33 am »
Being open-minded does not mean treating every possible idea as equally valid. Besides, many of these users are ex-fundamentalists who have already considered or even accepted many of the dumb ideas Santorum espouses.
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Offline Shane for Wax

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2012, 03:21:13 am »
Many of us, many of us thought like Santorum does and we 'grew out of it'. Don't accuse us of something without even knowing who you are speaking to.

Besides, all you're doing is throwing Pascal's Wager in our face as if we have no experience with it or been hurt by it. Many of us were forced using the scare tactic of 'what if you're wrong and God does exist?' to stay with our respective churches. I for one do not appreciate such things.

Belief out of fear is no belief at all.

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Offline Podkayne

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2012, 03:24:19 am »
Many of us, many of us thought like Santorum does and we 'grew out of it'. Don't accuse us of something without even knowing who you are speaking to.

Besides, all you're doing is throwing Pascal's Wager in our face as if we have no experience with it or been hurt by it. Many of us were forced using the scare tactic of 'what if you're wrong and God does exist?' to stay with our respective churches. I for one do not appreciate such things.

Belief out of fear is no belief at all.
Not what I'm doing at all, since I'm not actually suggesting he IS right. Forget it, go back to reflexively disagreeing with him on principal, you'll be fine.

I just asked if people had considered he might be right, the answer is either yes or no, no reason to get personal.
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Offline Eniliad

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Re: Santorum wants a spiritual war against liberal Protestants
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2012, 03:25:10 am »
So, you want us to open-mindedly accept the idea... that Satan is using abortion debates to destroy American culture.

No.

Let me remind you the OP:

Quote
A speech former Senator Rick Santorum delivered at a Catholic college in 2008 began burning up the left-wing blogosphere Friday afternoon. At Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, Santorum argued that Satan was using the national debate over abortion as a tool to destroy the institutions of American culture — including universities, churches, the popular culture, and the government.
“This is not a political war at all. This is not a cultural war at all. This is a spiritual war,” Santorum said during his August 29, 2008 speech. “And the Father of Lies has his sights on what you would think the Father of Lies, Satan, would have his sights on: a good, decent, powerful, influential country, the United States of America.”
The portion of his remarks that have attracted the most attention — including scorn from the liberal People for the American Way, which identified the university’s podcast of Santorum’s speech on Friday — concern his view that Protestant churches have been compromised by that “spiritual war” over the question of when life begins.

Open-mindedness doesn't mean treating all bullshit as something valid enough to consider.
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