Author Topic: A theological question about Heaven and Hell  (Read 13710 times)

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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2018, 05:20:01 pm »
This is why if Christianity were actually real, Satan would be the good guy while God is the most unwiped anus of them all.

But Satan invented evil and is therefore responsible for all the evil that happens in the world.

Not according to the bible.

Quote
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

Behold, this evil is of the Lord. 2 Kings 6:33

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Job 2:10

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3:38

Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Job 42:11
Your bullshit Catholic Douay-Rheims interpretation notwithstanding.

The evils of afflictions and punishments clearly refers to those things. The Douay-Rheims interpretation withstanding.
Special pleading bollocks. Also your habit of throwing in nonexistent psuedolegal clauses and loopholes doesn't alter the fact that they weren't there in the original text. It only shows that the Catholics, among others, intuitively understand that the bible is unethical so they're forced to make up reasons to make it reasonable from whole cloth because they sure as shit know they won't find the justification for their apologetics in the bible!

According to Catholic Answers, the Hebrew word Ra that was translated as evil can mean moral evil but also mean natural evil like it does in the verses you quoted. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/did-god-create-evil

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2018, 05:44:37 pm »
This is why if Christianity were actually real, Satan would be the good guy while God is the most unwiped anus of them all.

But Satan invented evil and is therefore responsible for all the evil that happens in the world.

Not according to the bible.

Quote
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

Behold, this evil is of the Lord. 2 Kings 6:33

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Job 2:10

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3:38

Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Job 42:11
Your bullshit Catholic Douay-Rheims interpretation notwithstanding.

The evils of afflictions and punishments clearly refers to those things. The Douay-Rheims interpretation withstanding.
Special pleading bollocks. Also your habit of throwing in nonexistent psuedolegal clauses and loopholes doesn't alter the fact that they weren't there in the original text. It only shows that the Catholics, among others, intuitively understand that the bible is unethical so they're forced to make up reasons to make it reasonable from whole cloth because they sure as shit know they won't find the justification for their apologetics in the bible!

According to Catholic Answers, the Hebrew word Ra that was translated as evil can mean moral evil but also mean natural evil like it does in the verses you quoted. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/did-god-create-evil
And that little factoid doesn't change the fact that you and the rest of the bible apologetics industry chooses to interpret words, phrases and passages by assuming information not explicitly contained in the words they cite or adding clauses out of thin air to make the most troubling content seem not so bad by giving them a context that was never there in the first place.

Just admit that iron age biblical morality is out of step with even medieval church morality because it's as arbitrary, inconsistent and savage as the world the Israelites lived in and stop trying to polish a turd.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2018, 07:43:38 pm »
This is why if Christianity were actually real, Satan would be the good guy while God is the most unwiped anus of them all.

But Satan invented evil and is therefore responsible for all the evil that happens in the world.

Not according to the bible.

Quote
Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things

Behold, this evil is of the Lord. 2 Kings 6:33

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Job 2:10

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3:38

Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Job 42:11
Your bullshit Catholic Douay-Rheims interpretation notwithstanding.

The evils of afflictions and punishments clearly refers to those things. The Douay-Rheims interpretation withstanding.
Special pleading bollocks. Also your habit of throwing in nonexistent psuedolegal clauses and loopholes doesn't alter the fact that they weren't there in the original text. It only shows that the Catholics, among others, intuitively understand that the bible is unethical so they're forced to make up reasons to make it reasonable from whole cloth because they sure as shit know they won't find the justification for their apologetics in the bible!

According to Catholic Answers, the Hebrew word Ra that was translated as evil can mean moral evil but also mean natural evil like it does in the verses you quoted. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/did-god-create-evil
And that little factoid doesn't change the fact that you and the rest of the bible apologetics industry chooses to interpret words, phrases and passages by assuming information not explicitly contained in the words they cite or adding clauses out of thin air to make the most troubling content seem not so bad by giving them a context that was never there in the first place.

Just admit that iron age biblical morality is out of step with even medieval church morality because it's as arbitrary, inconsistent and savage as the world the Israelites lived in and stop trying to polish a turd.

They are not assuming information, they studied what the Hebrew word Ra means. What is absurd is that you think that the writers of the Old Testament thought that the God they worship was evil and it contradicts the Old Testament verses that talk about how those who obey God are righteous and those who go against God are wicked.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 07:56:23 pm by Jacob Harrison »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2018, 09:36:48 pm »
And you're assuming that your universal dictator was bound by the same expectations that his mortal followers were, they are extolled not to be wicked-the boss man can be as wicked as he likes!

Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2018, 11:25:16 pm »
I added the additional point that seeing someone eating breakfast in the future has no affect on that person making that decision. I don’t think Askold mentioned that.
That was exactly his point in the first place, Einstein. Jesus fucking Christ, you are so brain dead, it's nothing short of a miracle that you can even work a computer at all.
How does that work? Just because the result is known in advance by a separate entity that doesn't mean that the entity that is the subject in this scenario isn't making the choices out of their free will. They have their own motivations and aspirations. And this is the philosophical difference that we have. You argue that knowing the next step that a person does is the same as that person not having a choice to do anything else. I argue that the fundamental difference is that the person does that choice out of their free will because nothing is forcing them to make that choice. They could have done something different and the only thing changing in the scenario is that the omnipresent observer would have seen them doing that other thing.
Someone or something being able to know a choice in advance would prove that choices are completely predictable, which in turn would prove that our choices are just as much a result of simple causality, incredibly complex as the specific mechanics may be, as anything else. It's all ultimately just a matter of if x input, then y output. Though I've already said all this, so no need to repeat myself.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:09:08 am by Art Vandelay »

Offline Askold

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2018, 07:54:27 am »
I added the additional point that seeing someone eating breakfast in the future has no affect on that person making that decision. I don’t think Askold mentioned that.
That was exactly his point in the first place, Einstein. Jesus fucking Christ, you are so brain dead, it's nothing short of a miracle that you can even work a computer at all.
How does that work? Just because the result is known in advance by a separate entity that doesn't mean that the entity that is the subject in this scenario isn't making the choices out of their free will. They have their own motivations and aspirations. And this is the philosophical difference that we have. You argue that knowing the next step that a person does is the same as that person not having a choice to do anything else. I argue that the fundamental difference is that the person does that choice out of their free will because nothing is forcing them to make that choice. They could have done something different and the only thing changing in the scenario is that the omnipresent observer would have seen them doing that other thing.
Someone or something being able to know a choice in advance would prove that choices are completely predictable, which in turn would prove that our choices are just as much a result of simple causality, incredibly complex as the specific mechanics may be, as anything else. It's all ultimately just a matter of if x input, then y output. Though I've already said all this, so no need to repeat myself.

We are going through this again and again because I disagree with the entire philosophical argument.

Does free will demand that there be multiple paths? How can such a thing be proven true or false if it is required? And this is not a case of "no matter which button you push, the result is still the same" nor does this type of world view demand that people are controlled into making the actions they make. I just don't see how knowing the result beforehand means that the person acting did not act out of their free will.
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Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2018, 08:21:20 am »
Does free will demand that there be multiple paths? How can such a thing be proven true or false if it is required? And this is not a case of "no matter which button you push, the result is still the same" nor does this type of world view demand that people are controlled into making the actions they make. I just don't see how knowing the result beforehand means that the person acting did not act out of their free will.
I suppose genuine multiple possibilities are indeed necessary. That's really the key difference between actual free will and merely the illusion of free will, is it not? If there's only one actual possibility, then there's no real choice being made. Hell, what even is free will in the first place, particularly in terms of brain function? Because I really don't see how an incredibly complex but nonetheless perfectly knowable system of information processing has some sort of vague, almost supernatural power of self-determination.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2018, 01:59:57 pm »
And you're assuming that your universal dictator was bound by the same expectations that his mortal followers were, they are extolled not to be wicked-the boss man can be as wicked as he likes!

But that doesn't make sense. Why would a wicked God forbid his followers from acting wicked. Wouldn't he want them too?

Offline dpareja

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2018, 02:22:22 pm »
Maybe because God is a massive hypocrite.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2018, 02:59:16 pm »
And you're assuming that your universal dictator was bound by the same expectations that his mortal followers were, they are extolled not to be wicked-the boss man can be as wicked as he likes!

But that doesn't make sense. Why would a wicked God forbid his followers from acting wicked. Wouldn't he want them too?
Because that's his prerogative in biblical "morality," it's why in the story of Job God is portrayed as totally justified sending the Devil off to kill his family, break his property and ruin him in order to test his faith, because he's God and he gets a pass. He even tells Job as much when the poor son of a bitch has the gall to ask what he's done wromg.

Art Vandelay

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2018, 08:19:57 pm »
But that doesn't make sense. Why would a wicked God forbid his followers from acting wicked. Wouldn't he want them too?
Because the Bible is a very loose and inconsistent compilation of bronze age myths that nobody with more than two brains cells to rub together should ever think is literally true. Not only does it contradict reality, but it contradicts itself at almost every turn.

Offline KingOfRhye

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2018, 09:54:33 pm »
Does free will demand that there be multiple paths?

There are two paths you can go by, but in the long run there's still time to change the road you're on.

Offline Skybison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2018, 12:21:07 am »
But doesn't this post mean he is punishing you as well?

Or she would suffer more knowing that you can't even feel for her suffering.

Ok so while I wouldn’t want to have my mind changed to not make me upset about her suffering, it is what God does in order to make heaven a happy place. I can’t go against it because God is God.

If God did that to you against your will, doesn't that mean God is a bad person?

But it would be for a just reason, which is to make heaven a happy place with no suffering.

Why would that be just?  Forcing people to be happy a bad thing to do, because there is more to life then happiness.  That's why you would rather keep your love for the damned then lose it.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2018, 07:46:44 am »
But doesn't this post mean he is punishing you as well?

Or she would suffer more knowing that you can't even feel for her suffering.

Ok so while I wouldn’t want to have my mind changed to not make me upset about her suffering, it is what God does in order to make heaven a happy place. I can’t go against it because God is God.

If God did that to you against your will, doesn't that mean God is a bad person?

But it would be for a just reason, which is to make heaven a happy place with no suffering.

Why would that be just?  Forcing people to be happy a bad thing to do, because there is more to life then happiness.  That's why you would rather keep your love for the damned then lose it.

But if God did not do so, then heaven would also be hell.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A theological question about Heaven and Hell
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2018, 04:16:49 pm »
A place run by a mad dictator would be hell all over, ya don't say?