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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Lana Reverse on June 09, 2017, 09:57:14 am

Title: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Lana Reverse on June 09, 2017, 09:57:14 am
https://www.yahoo.com/news/where-went-wrong-theresa-may-060425694.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/where-went-wrong-theresa-may-060425694.html)

If she's still PM this time next month, I'll be surprised.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Id82 on June 09, 2017, 10:43:30 am
I had to have a British co worker explain British elections to me. From what I understand is she probably won't resign but will probably be forced out by her own party for making such a stupid vain move as this snap election.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Askold on June 09, 2017, 11:37:04 am
And now her party is teaming up with the DUP.

And my understanding of British politics is not that good but apparently that group is the Northern-Irish group that wants to stay with Britain and are also right-wing populists, anti-EU ...And these things:

(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p370x247/18922102_937629893046197_8221312006460799270_n.jpg?oh=b18a9b75ce5cf5240a959ea5c41c930a&oe=59AC97E7)

...I am sure that they'll get along just fine and the British people will not crush the Tories in the next elections.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: dpareja on June 09, 2017, 12:39:36 pm
Apparently Jim Messina was one of the senior advisers in the Conservative campaign.

Jim Messina is a former advisor to Barack Obama, and was his 2012 campaign manager.

He helped run Jon Tester's 2006 Senate run in Montana.

He called proponents of single-payer "fucking retarded."

He eventually became co-chair of Priorities USA Action, a SuperPAC working to elect Clinton.

How he still had a job after being part of one of the worst nightmares of a campaign in US history is beyond me; that he'll almost certainly find a job with some campaign somewhere after May's nightmare sickens me.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Cloud3514 on June 09, 2017, 09:22:57 pm
And now her party is teaming up with the DUP.

And my understanding of British politics is not that good but apparently that group is the Northern-Irish group that wants to stay with Britain and are also right-wing populists, anti-EU ...And these things:

(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p370x247/18922102_937629893046197_8221312006460799270_n.jpg?oh=b18a9b75ce5cf5240a959ea5c41c930a&oe=59AC97E7)

...I am sure that they'll get along just fine and the British people will not crush the Tories in the next elections.

So the fascists are teaming up with the theocrats. How do the Tories not realize that this is the kind of shit that made the election go sideways for them? If they keep this shit up, hopefully they won't ruin the UK before Labour is inevitably in charge.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on June 09, 2017, 11:09:27 pm
And now her party is teaming up with the DUP.

And my understanding of British politics is not that good but apparently that group is the Northern-Irish group that wants to stay with Britain and are also right-wing populists, anti-EU ...And these things:

(https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p370x247/18922102_937629893046197_8221312006460799270_n.jpg?oh=b18a9b75ce5cf5240a959ea5c41c930a&oe=59AC97E7)

...I am sure that they'll get along just fine and the British people will not crush the Tories in the next elections.
Oh they hate the EU with a passion but they need it because of thr Good Friday agreements which hinge on free movement between Ireland and Northern Ireland. It's why the DUP only supports a "soft Brexit". They may be right wing as hell but they absolutely do not want to see the return of "the troubles".

EDIT:Scratch that. They've just come out and said they want no special status deal for NI. Which means they'd rather have the bombings and.bloodshed of the troubles than any suggestion they're any different from the rest of the UK.

Ah well, common sense never.got between a fundie and self-preservation before!
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 10, 2017, 04:00:11 am
And now her party is teaming up with the DUP.

And my understanding of British politics is not that good but apparently that group is the Northern-Irish group that wants to stay with Britain and are also right-wing populists, anti-EU ...:


They're the biggest party in Northern Ireland, their leader is the First Minister of NI (sort of like a local Prime Minster for NI but not).  And they're fundies.  Anti-gay, anti-abortion creationists.  They're why NI still does not have equal marriage, gays cannot give blood and why the abortion laws here are out of step with the rest of the UK.  They're also corrupt and are involved in a scandal approx. every 6 seconds and the latest scandal is largely responsible for their inability to form a government with Sinn Fein despite winning the last assembly election (it's kind of complicated to explain how the power sharing executive works, Google it).  And for some reason they win every local election.  It's why I like to call Northern Ireland the deep south of the UK.  That plus country music and line dancing are inexplicably popular here.

What irks me is the English didn't have a problem with the DUP running an entire region of the UK until it suddenly affected them, now FB, Twitter and the press are full of outrage at how awful the DUP is.  Where was that outrage all the times they've won the NI Assembly elections?  Oh that's right it didn't affect you so you didn't care, because you don't care about us and you barely even remember we exist.  "United" kingdom my arse.

As for Theresa May:

"We've been too tolerant of extremism." - Forms a government with extremists who have been running one of the countries in the UK for years.

I love politicians, don't you?
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: dpareja on June 10, 2017, 04:06:32 am
Silly Katsuro, don't you know that only Muslims can be "extremist" these days?
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 10, 2017, 04:14:18 am
Silly Katsuro, don't you know that only Muslims can be "extremist" these days?

Much like how the UK gov keeps telling us the terrorism threat today is unprecedented, despite the fact that at times during the 1970's and 80's terror attacks were almost a daily occurrence in the UK (not just in Northern Ireland, the IRA attacked targets in England too, including the assassination of 3 members of the Royal family and bombing the Conservative Party Convention.)

I guess the IRA, INLA, Real IRA, UDA, UVF, etc etc no longer count as terrorists because only brown people are terrorists now.  Seriously, anytime a nutter stabs a bunch of people it's a spree killer if he's white and a terror attack if he's brown and/or muslim.  Regardless of motive.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: SCarpelan on June 10, 2017, 08:18:40 am
I wouldn't say Corbyn's discussions with IRA and Hezbollah were at all equal to what May is doing now. May allies with terrorist sympathizers and extremists for her own political gain and is prepared to empower them in order to benefit herself and her party. Corbyn's agenda in negotiating with terrorists was to find peaceful solutions to violent conflicts. This actually makes anyone who condemned Corbyn and ignores what May is doing even more of an hypocrite.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on June 10, 2017, 09:00:08 am
Ruth Davidson (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/tory-dup-deal-ruth-davidson-receives-assurances-from-pm-over-gay-rights) a Scottish Tory who is gay is seeking assurances from May that the frothing loonies she's trying to placate won't affect her upcoming wedding.

I think this is the essence of sudden British concern for the awfulness of the DUP Katsuro was talking about. A Scottish Tory who would have been declared an abomination in Northern Ireland suddenly giving all the fucks because some knuckle dragging fundies from Northern Ireland that she could have safely ignored only last week might now piss all over her special day!
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 10, 2017, 09:09:09 am
I wouldn't say Corbyn's discussions with IRA and Hezbollah were at all equal to what May is doing now. May allies with terrorist sympathizers and extremists for her own political gain and is prepared to empower them in order to benefit herself and her party. Corbyn's agenda in negotiating with terrorists was to find peaceful solutions to violent conflicts. This actually makes anyone who condemned Corbyn and ignores what May is doing even more of an hypocrite.

Ruth Davidson (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/tory-dup-deal-ruth-davidson-receives-assurances-from-pm-over-gay-rights) a Scottish Tory who is gay is seeking assurances from May that the frothing loonies she's trying to placate won't affect her upcoming wedding.

I think this is the essence of sudden British concern for the awfulness of the DUP Katsuro was talking about. A Scottish Tory who would have been declared an abomination in Northern Ireland suddenly giving all the fucks because some knuckle dragging fundies from Northern Ireland that she could have safely ignored only last week might now piss all over her special day!

I'd "like" these posts so hard if that was a thing in these forums.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 10, 2017, 09:33:36 am
I will say though with the sheer horror the English seem to be feeling at learning what kind of people the Tories have gotten into bed with it might do even more serious damage to the Tories that they struggle to recover from.  Also, parties who enter into coalitions with the Tories have a history of being irreparably fucked by it, so it could end the DUP as a meaningful political force in Northern Ireland.

Although judging from what's happened in the Philippines, Turkey, the USA and with the Brexit referendum the voting public seems to have gone fucking mad in the last few years so we'll probably end up making the Tories and the DUP Supreme Eternal Overlords of the Universe instead.  Plus I know what we're like in Northern Ireland, we'll keep electing these fuckers for years to come I'm sure. 
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 10, 2017, 10:11:07 am
There is a disturbing number of people on Twitter blaming all of this on the people who voted Labour and Lib Dem, saying if they'd voted Tory this wouldn't have happened and a strong Tory gov is better than this weak one and making comments like, "well you got the weak government you wanted!".  Are they fucking serious?  Everyone should always vote Tory regardless of how you feel about any parties policies or track record, just so you always have a strong government?  Fuck right off!  That's not how democracy works and nor should it.  Funny how they think everyone should vote for the party THEY like rather than any other's just to ensure strong governments.  I'm sure that's just coincidental though, right?

Besides, by that same logic one could argue that if they'd all voted Labour instead of Tory none of this would have happened, a strong Labour government is better than a weak Tory one.  They got the weak government they wanted!.  Why didn't they vote Labour?  Because they didn't like their polices, history and/or leader? Guess what fucktards, that's why people didn't vote Tory too.  People are not gonna vote for a party that they think are a disaster for the country and who don't represent their interests just so the government is strong. Christ the stupidity of people frightens me sometimes.

Also the political divide and the attitudes towards voters of the opposing party of your choice in the UK is starting to worryingly bear more and more resemblance to the extreme of America's, and of Northern Ireland's.  This can't be good.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: dpareja on June 10, 2017, 01:14:18 pm
Robert Shrimsley of the Financial Times:

Quote
It's almost as if Theresa May looked at Hillary's campaign and said: "Let's do that."

Which is not surprising, since Jim Messina helped run May's campaign.

EDIT:

From another forum:

From that Minneapolis-Saint Paul conservative I quoted over in the Good Things thread:

Quote
As a Catholic myself, I find much of what [the DUP] say fairly attractive, particularly compared to the Tories themselves.

From an actual Brit (raised there, but born in Minnesota, actually):

Quote
You do see the irony of what you said, right?

And later ("[He]" refers to the person first quoted):

Quote
Yeah Ruth Davison is gay, and is one of the saviours of the election for the Conservatives. Which makes it all the more interesting how the "stable" Conservatives are going to cope with DUP.

[He] may like like the DUP's manifesto, but this is a hard line far right Protestant party, founded by one of the most hate filled people I've ever been alive to see, Ian Paisley. [Person], when you said "as a catholic", do you realise this is a very anti-Catholic party, and the atrocities Paisley and his followers committed against Catholics was as bad, if not worse, than the IRA inflicted on others.

Think Westboro Baptist Church with added violence.

They are extremely anti-gay as well, and with 17 gay/lesbian MPs in the Tory party, how will they hope to work together?

I suspect they'll work together out of political pragmatism: the Conservatives so as not to lose more ground to Labour, now that Corbyn's proved his doubters wrong, and the DUP because they want to have the Tories by the short and curlies.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on June 10, 2017, 10:14:20 pm

Quote
Yeah Ruth Davison is gay, and is one of the saviours of the election for the Conservatives. Which makes it all the more interesting how the "stable" Conservatives are going to cope with DUP.

[He] may like like the DUP's manifesto, but this is a hard line far right Protestant party, founded by one of the most hate filled people I've ever been alive to see, Ian Paisley. [Person], when you said "as a catholic", do you realise this is a very anti-Catholic party, and the atrocities Paisley and his followers committed against Catholics was as bad, if not worse, than the IRA inflicted on others.

Think Westboro Baptist Church with added violence.

They are extremely anti-gay as well, and with 17 gay/lesbian MPs in the Tory party, how will they hope to work together?

I suspect they'll work together out of political pragmatism: the Conservatives so as not to lose more ground to Labour, now that Corbyn's proved his doubters wrong, and the DUP because they want to have the Tories by the short and curlies.
And here's where things get fucking dangerous.

The Good Friday Agreements which brought a historic accord between Northern Ireland's Catholic and Unionist communities. Free movement between Northern Ireland and Ireland and power sharing between the DUP and Sinn Feinn. The first goes out the window with a hard Brexit, the second gets shot to shit if the DUP rules the province by decree with Westminster's help and ignores Sinn Feinn, something they've longed to do for decades.

If these two things happen, that's when you'll get blood on the streets. A lot of it!

UPDATE: Not soon after May announced they had reached a deal with the DUP, she was contradicted-by the DUP (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/10/theresa-may-dup-deal-snag-tory-rebellion) who insist that negotations are continuing. Apparently the Sectarian, Creationist ultraconservatives who have the Tories by their blue-blooded balls have quite the laundry list of demands.

Lots of demands.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 11, 2017, 02:46:36 am

EDIT:

From another forum:

From that Minneapolis-Saint Paul conservative I quoted over in the Good Things thread:

Quote
As a Catholic myself, I find much of what [the DUP] say fairly attractive, particularly compared to the Tories themselves.

From an actual Brit (raised there, but born in Minnesota, actually):

[He] may like like the DUP's manifesto, but this is a hard line far right Protestant party, founded by one of the most hate filled people I've ever been alive to see, Ian Paisley. [Person], when you said "as a catholic", do you realise this is a very anti-Catholic party, and the atrocities Paisley and his followers committed against Catholics was as bad, if not worse, than the IRA inflicted on others.

The funny thing too is the republican/nationalist "Catholic" parties (I say "catholic" because unlike the DUP they're really secular, their religion does not inform their policies it's just that nationalists traditionally tended to be Catholic and the unionists Protestant but not necessarily - Wolfe Tone  was a Protest after all) are NOTHING like the DUP.  The most progressive and liberal party in Northern Ireland these days, apart from the Green Party, is Sinn Fein for fuck sake.  Which may seem insane at first, the IRA being the former political wing of the IRA, but when you remember that The Troubles originally started over Catholic civil rights issues more or less (that is something of an over simplification of course) it makes a bit more sense.

Edit: The Catholic-Protestant thing in Northern Ireland is somewhat misunderstood by many outside NI.  It has bugger all to do with theological disagreements over how exactly one should worship God, nobody gives a fuck about that, it's more about tribalism.  If you asked most people what the actual theological differences are between Protestantism and Catholicism I guarantee most wouldn't have a fucking clue  and would probably respond with something about "taigs" "huns" and "fenian bastards".  It's a bout "them'uns" and "us'uns".  I mean do you think these people below have a deep theological understanding of Catholicism and Protestantism?  Do you think they've even set foot in a church?

(https://viceland-assets-cdn.vice.com/blogs/nl/files/2011/08/shimmy-shimmy.jpg)
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: dpareja on June 11, 2017, 02:57:08 am
And this is his reply to its being pointed out that the DUP was violently anti-Catholic:

Quote
I said "as a Catholic" particularly because of their history. Isn't Ian Paisley long dead?

In the 1910s and 20s, the Democratic Party was deeply intertwined with the Ku Klux Klan, an organization that was not only violently anti-Black but violently anti-Catholic. The record-long nomination battle for the 1924 presidential nomination at the DNC was known as the "Klanbake". A platform plank that merely condemned the terrorism and violence of the Klan (not the Klan itself!) was defeated on the floor, to the roaring cheers of members who went outside and donned white hoods to celebrate.

But the Klanbake turned out to be the high-water mark of terrorism in the Democratic Party. Four years later, the Democrats nominated a Catholic for president, Al Smith (though their own anti-Catholicism severely hobbled his campaign, and he lost). Ten years later, the Klan's influence in the party was sharply limited, FDR was passing the New Deal, Catholics were openly courted by the New Deal coalition, and my Catholic great-grandparents had converted solidly to loyal Democrats -- a loyalty that would last for three generations, basically until Roe v. Wade and Ronald Reagan's pledge to combat it.

So political parties change. Politics is ugly enough, and long-lived enough, that you can't really afford to hold a grudge if change happens -- because you'll have too much a grudge against everyone to vote for any of them. So I don't really care if the DUP was shouting about the EEC being Romish Antichrist in 1977 or blowing up Catholic schools in 1985 as long as they don't hate Catholics today... just as my great-grandparents didn't care about Democrats' recent historical support of anti-Catholic rhetoric and terrorism once they cut it out and embraced Catholics. I mean, forty years ago the Left in America (marginalized by the Democrats) was out blowing up buildings and organizing for revolution. Does Bill Ayers's biography mean Bernie Sanders wants to kill police officers? I think not.

Now, I admit I don't know terribly much about DUP. I had heard of them before the election, but knew literally nothing else about them until the hung parliament result. So maybe there are a bunch of anti-Catholic terrorists still running the show. But that wasn't what I found when I googled. On the contrary, I found active attempts at outreach to voters from all faiths (or no faith) who think a lot like I do on a great many key issues.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 11, 2017, 03:10:51 am
...I found active attempts at outreach to voters from all faiths (or no faith) who think a lot like I do on a great many key issues.
[/quote]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Fuck me that's the funniest thing I've ever read in my life.  I laughed so hard I needed medical attention.

Take it from someone who has actually lived in Northern Ireland their whole life and whose dad was a staunch Unionist and Protestant from the Shankill Road - this person has no idea wtf they're talking and needs to shut the fuck up, they're embarrassing themselves.  The DUP has zero redeeming qualities, that is not an exaggeration.  Christ, even my dad hated Ian Paisley and his ilk (he was a UUP supporter, they used to be the largest Unionist party and whilst not exactly good they're far better than the DUP).
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on June 11, 2017, 04:52:50 am
Edit: The Catholic-Protestant thing in Northern Ireland is somewhat misunderstood by many outside NI.  It has bugger all to do with theological disagreements over how exactly one should worship God, nobody gives a fuck about that, it's more about tribalism.  If you asked most people what the actual theological differences are between Protestantism and Catholicism I guarantee most wouldn't have a fucking clue  and would probably respond with something about "taigs" "huns" and "fenian bastards".  It's a bout "them'uns" and "us'uns".  I mean do you think these people below have a deep theological understanding of Catholicism and Protestantism?  Do you think they've even set foot in a church?

Plenty of theological disagreements are less "I'm troubled by your interpretation of this text" and more "me and my mob want your shit" and/or "fuck your mob, you're different and that's bad."

Palestinians and Israelis, Serbs and Croats. Don't think these were mainly about theological disagreements.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Askold on June 11, 2017, 04:53:04 am
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"

It's tribalism and that the line is drawn by religion is a matter of historic coincidence.  It may as well have been about who can trace their great great great granpa to Irish or English ancestry.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 11, 2017, 06:02:35 am
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"

It's tribalism and that the line is drawn by religion is a matter of historic coincidence.  It may as well have been about who can trace their great great great granpa to Irish or English ancestry.

I did meet a Jew a year or two ago at a stage combat course of all places (we do have a Jewish community but it's pretty small, she was the first and so far only one I've met) and, having heard of such tales, asked them if they've ever been asked if they're a Protestant or a Catholic Jew. They said yes.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Katsuro on June 11, 2017, 06:18:48 am
Edit: The Catholic-Protestant thing in Northern Ireland is somewhat misunderstood by many outside NI.  It has bugger all to do with theological disagreements over how exactly one should worship God, nobody gives a fuck about that, it's more about tribalism.  If you asked most people what the actual theological differences are between Protestantism and Catholicism I guarantee most wouldn't have a fucking clue  and would probably respond with something about "taigs" "huns" and "fenian bastards".  It's a bout "them'uns" and "us'uns".  I mean do you think these people below have a deep theological understanding of Catholicism and Protestantism?  Do you think they've even set foot in a church?

Plenty of theological disagreements are less "I'm troubled by your interpretation of this text" and more "me and my mob want your shit" and/or "fuck your mob, you're different and that's bad."

Palestinians and Israelis, Serbs and Croats. Don't think these were mainly about theological disagreements.

True, and a fair point but people here are a special kind of ignorant and a unique kind of stupid.  I'd bet money a fair number of people here in the"protestant community" don't know what Catholicism even is, that its even a religion.  All they know is, "Durrr fenians!"

Also I've heard and read things by people, including the likes of Richard Dawkins, that make it clear that some don't get it  Unlike certain terror groups in the world , for example, neither the protestant nor catholic terror groups did what they did in the name of God or because of their religious beliefs (even if some Loyalist groups did use the slogan "For God and Ulster").  People, again including Dawkins, often talk about them in a way that makes it obvious they view them as more or less being the same as some of the Islamic groups, overemphasising the religious aspect.  But the IRA wasn't trying to create a Catholic theocracy, and the protestants weren't trying to create a Protestant theocracy (except maybe the DUP lol).  Nobody shouted "God is great!" before blowing up a pub.  I mean, as I said before the man considered the father of the Republican movement was a Protestant.  I doubt the founder of ISIS or Al Queda are Christians, or Jewish, or Wiccans or whatever else.  The IRA, UDA et all can't be compared to the Islamic terror groups, I wish certain people would stop doing so.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Art Vandelay on June 11, 2017, 07:24:35 am
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"
The Catholic Jews don't circumcise little boys, they simply suck them off.
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on June 11, 2017, 08:45:00 pm
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"
The Catholic Jews don't circumcise little boys, they simply suck them off.
Is that "doctrinal disagreement" sectarianism or "I want your stuff" sectarianism?

On the British politics side of things it looks like Brexit-lite is back on the table. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/11/brexit-lite-back-on-table-as-britain-rethinks-options-after-election) Translation, pay all the dues but get none of the vote. Also, the DUP might play nice so long as they get their stuff. (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-parliaments-40225336)

Notably absent from this discussion has been our very own hard Brexiteer and loather of bitter Celts. Maybe his beloved Tories caving in to the EU lite option and having their bollocks squeezed firmly into a vice by the bitterest of bitter Celts could have something to do with it?
Title: Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
Post by: Skybison on June 12, 2017, 02:08:15 am
@Katsuro

For the record I think what your saying about the IRA/UDA is true for a lot of Muslim terrorists too.  Most the rank and file members at least are more motivated by tribalism and don't really know or care much about the larger ideology.  The Pulse nightclub shooter for example was a hard drinker who swore allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah apparently unaware that they are actively at war with each other.