Author Topic: Man shoots black kid cops do nothing  (Read 91080 times)

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2012, 11:49:17 pm »
I really hope you're not being serious.

Assuming you are, do you think for a minute that if a 28 year old black man with an arrest record shot a 140 pound white child in the chest (armed only with skittles and arizona iced tea) that the cops would let him go?

Assuming the same circumstances, yes.

The police had no one other witnesses other than an injured man who said he was defending himself.  At that time they also did not know about his record.  Now that it is after the fact it is up to the district attorney to decide to press charges.  Even if the cops had arrested him, the district attorney still has the option to not bring charges.
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Offline davedan

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2012, 12:12:39 am »
Putting race aside. What circumstances here suggest that the shooter should not be charged?

It is still for the police to charge him and then for the State Attorney to indicte and prosecute.

Simply assuming the following circumstances, I would like to know if anyone thinks the shooter should not be charged:

1. Following a suspicious looking character down the street two blocks;
2. Accosting the suspicious looking character;
3. Getting into a physical altercation with suspicious looking character;
4. During altercation shooting suspicious looking character.
5. Suspicious character is unarmed.
6. Shooter does not deny shooting but claims he shot in self-defence;
7. Dead suspicious person was not on/and was never on shooter's property.

Does anyone seriously suggest that in these circumstances the Shooter should NOT be charged?

Because that to put it bluntly is the best possible gloss that Zimmerman could have. In the circumstances I consider the State is obliged to pursue the charges and let a jury determine whether self defence is made out on the facts as claimed and objective circumstances.

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2012, 12:52:07 am »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj9YJw8whI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wj9YJw8whI</a>
Cops mega wrong

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2012, 06:12:06 am »
You have to remember that the police and districts attorneys in Florida have to deal with the stand you ground law.  That law say that if you are in a place you can legal be in you may use force, including deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm, without the need to retreat.  That means all the man has to say is that the kid attacked him.  It doesn't matter that he was following the kid.  With no other witnesses you are not going to prove he did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Plus the law also says that if the state does bring charges and the person is found innocent because of this law they are owed the cost of their defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2012, 06:46:33 am »
You have to remember that the police and districts attorneys in Florida have to deal with the stand you ground law.  That law say that if you are in a place you can legal be in you may use force, including deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm, without the need to retreat.  That means all the man has to say is that the kid attacked him.  It doesn't matter that he was following the kid.  With no other witnesses you are not going to prove he did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Plus the law also says that if the state does bring charges and the person is found innocent because of this law they are owed the cost of their defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Wait a minute here. It is all good and well to say that a person in a public space can use lethal self defense, but this man first phoned 911 and was advised by them to do nothing and wait for the police. Instead he chose to leave his property into the public space and that resulted in the altercation that cost the boy his life. Now if we assume best possible scenario for the shooter, we can say that the boy saw the man following him and accosted him demanding to know why he was being followed. Still, to pull a gun on an unarmed individual who is 100 pounds lighter, makes no sense.

Also, the state should prosecute regardless of the risk with regards to paying for the defense if he is innocent. If accountants decide the what laws should and should not be tried because of cost it would be a great travesty of the justice system.

Offline N. De Plume

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2012, 07:17:02 am »
Dude, the shooter pursued the kid. Zimmerman had no reason to have to “stand his ground.” If anyone had ground to stand, it was Martin.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2012, 08:03:57 am »
Assuming the same circumstances, yes.

Unbelievable.

Quote
The police had no one other witnesses other than an injured man who said he was defending himself.

You've mixed up the onus of proof. The police do not need to prove anything (the shooter has admitted to shooting the kid). He needs to prove self defence, if he wants to use that defence. As you've pointed out, he has no evidence to back him up. So he's dead.
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Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2012, 08:16:32 am »
You have to remember that the police and districts attorneys in Florida have to deal with the stand you ground law.  That law say that if you are in a place you can legal be in you may use force, including deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm, without the need to retreat.  That means all the man has to say is that the kid attacked him.  It doesn't matter that he was following the kid.  With no other witnesses you are not going to prove he did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Plus the law also says that if the state does bring charges and the person is found innocent because of this law they are owed the cost of their defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Doesn't matter. He has admitted to a crime, namely shooting someone. He hasn't denied shooting the kid, just said that he had a good reason. He has to be arrested, because he's admitted to a crime. His reasoning behind the shooting doesn't come out before the arrest; it comes after, at the trial. It's not the job of the police to judge whether or not he shot in self-defense: that's a judge's job.

Offline erictheblue

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2012, 11:09:07 am »
You have to remember that the police and districts attorneys in Florida have to deal with the stand you ground law.  That law say that if you are in a place you can legal be in you may use force, including deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm, without the need to retreat.

Actually, not quite. I posted FL's Castle Doctrine law on the last page. It requires the victim to actually have been on the shooter's property, among other things.

Also, as an affirmative defense, the defendant has the burden of proof to show the defense is valid. The state still has to prove all the elements of the crime (probably manslaughter here), and the defendant would have to show the Castle Doctrine applied. (IMO, it doesn't in this situation.) There is no reason the State couldn't file charges and start the process. Maybe it turns out that the shooter does have a Castle Doctrine defense. If so, he would be able to put on evidence of it (and remember, the defendant only has to create reasonable doubt) and maybe get acquitted.

Quote
Plus the law also says that if the state does bring charges and the person is found innocent because of this law they are owed the cost of their defense.

Not quite. The defendant isn't liable for "costs or fees of the court or any ministerial office, or for any charge of subsistence while detained in custody." They are liable for attorney's fees, and the law does not say the state has to pay the defendant fees. The fees are just waived.
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Offline e13

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2012, 12:31:55 pm »


I read somewhere that Zimmerman might have been a police informant. So there's that.
So on top of everything else, we might be dealing with a "protect our own" mentality. Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.  >:(

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Offline davedan

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2012, 05:00:30 pm »
You have to remember that the police and districts attorneys in Florida have to deal with the stand you ground law.  That law say that if you are in a place you can legal be in you may use force, including deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm, without the need to retreat.  That means all the man has to say is that the kid attacked him.  It doesn't matter that he was following the kid.  With no other witnesses you are not going to prove he did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Plus the law also says that if the state does bring charges and the person is found innocent because of this law they are owed the cost of their defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Doesn't matter. He has admitted to a crime, namely shooting someone. He hasn't denied shooting the kid, just said that he had a good reason. He has to be arrested, because he's admitted to a crime. His reasoning behind the shooting doesn't come out before the arrest; it comes after, at the trial. It's not the job of the police to judge whether or not he shot in self-defense: that's a judge's job.

Small nitpick, in your system of 12 good men and women and true, it is the Jury's job.  But otherwise I completely agree.

Offline kefkaownsall

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2012, 05:41:18 pm »
You have to remember that the police and districts attorneys in Florida have to deal with the stand you ground law.  That law say that if you are in a place you can legal be in you may use force, including deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm, without the need to retreat.  That means all the man has to say is that the kid attacked him.  It doesn't matter that he was following the kid.  With no other witnesses you are not going to prove he did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Plus the law also says that if the state does bring charges and the person is found innocent because of this law they are owed the cost of their defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Doesn't matter. He has admitted to a crime, namely shooting someone. He hasn't denied shooting the kid, just said that he had a good reason. He has to be arrested, because he's admitted to a crime. His reasoning behind the shooting doesn't come out before the arrest; it comes after, at the trial. It's not the job of the police to judge whether or not he shot in self-defense: that's a judge's job.

Small nitpick, in your system of 12 good men and women and true, it is the Jury's job.  But otherwise I completely agree.
Typically self defense cases you'd want a bench trial

Offline davedan

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2012, 06:07:19 pm »
I'm surprised the US has an option of Judge only trials. We do but only in very select circumstances and at the discretion of the Court not the accused.

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2012, 06:42:29 pm »
You've mixed up the onus of proof. The police do not need to prove anything (the shooter has admitted to shooting the kid). He needs to prove self defence, if he wants to use that defence. As you've pointed out, he has no evidence to back him up. So he's dead.

The state has to prove that the man murdered the kid and was not acting in self defense, and do so beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: White guy shoots black kid cops do nothing
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2012, 06:44:09 pm »
You've mixed up the onus of proof. The police do not need to prove anything (the shooter has admitted to shooting the kid). He needs to prove self defence, if he wants to use that defence. As you've pointed out, he has no evidence to back him up. So he's dead.

The state has to prove that the man murdered the kid and was not acting in self defense, and do so beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's simply false.
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