Author Topic: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo  (Read 54687 times)

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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2014, 12:00:42 am »
I think that tinfoil hat of yours is cutting off the circulation to your brain.

This is not a rebuttal.  This is an empty statement.  Please try again.

Incidentally, since I am not an unbiased party in this discussion...

How would you feel if North Korea invaded the USA and bulldozed your house, to build a new house for North Koreans to live in?
How would you feel if there was a group of people fighting so that you could get your house back?  What if they were the only group of people willing to fight for your cause?

Would you call them terrorists?  Would you fight them tooth and nail, while insisting that you should lay down and die in front of a North Korean bulldozer, because "non-violent resistance" is the only answer?
1.  Israel is not North Korea.

Deflection.

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2.  I'm against the settlements, I just don't want innocent civilians to be murdered.

Then why aren't you showing more animosity towards Israel than you are showing Palestine?

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3.  When did I ask them to renounce violence entirely?

Your constant comparisons to other oppressed countries that have "solved things through non-violence", for starters.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.  Conversely, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

When you're backed into a corner with no way out, you're going to use whatever you can get.

Palestine is doing what it is doing because Israel is squeezing them into ghettos, destroying their homes, their families.  Israel is responsible for Palestine's actions, in this instance.
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2014, 04:29:51 am »
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And they used terrorism all the time. We remember them as this great non-violent social movement because it's convenient to, but they killed loads of people, including a bunch of Africans.

Difference is, they didn't deliberately target civilians, nor did they gloat over their deaths.


No, just no. The ANC primarily targeted civilians. Bombing shopping malls and such like they did, is pretty much guaranteed to only harm civilians. I would say they didn't care who they killed so long as they were white, but that's not entirely accurate because they killed even more black people than whites. Furthermore, while not having access to tanks and such (which would have been entirely useless in the civil war.) the ANC was quite well armed by their friendly ties with most old soviet block and communist nations.

The Palestinians cannot avoid civilians. hell, they can barely even harm Israeli civilians as it is. The people doing the settlements are not the Israeli military but building contractors and police, all of whom are civilians essentially. Last I checked even, those bottle rockets which are pretty much all the Palestinians have available to them, have such a short range they cannot even reach the original 1948 borders of Israel from the current Palestinian lands.

Hell, think about what caused this recent slaughter. 3 Jewish kids were abducted and killed. In any other country, this would be seen as the work of a serial killer or at worst an isolated incident of hate crime. Given the victims were all children, serial killer is more likely. However, the Israeli governments response to discovering the bodies is to proclaim "Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay" without any evidence whatsoever. Of course with such a proclamation and essentially support from the government, is it obvious that a group of Israelis will then go and execute a random Palestinian child in a revenge attack. After which everything spiraled out of control into the usual and current Israeli slaughter and bombing of Palestinian territories.

Lastly, air strikes, Israels current favorite method of slaughter, by their very nature are indiscriminate. Bombs dropped by aircraft are useless at fighting terrorists, but they work wonders at beating an uppity ghetto back into submission for the next wave of expansion.

Offline Askold

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2014, 04:48:13 am »
I agree with everything that Sylvana posted, but this:

...Lastly, air strikes, Israels current favorite method of slaughter, by their very nature are indiscriminate. Bombs dropped by aircraft are useless at fighting terrorists...

in particular is something that USA and their UAV military should finally learn as well.

And really, when the Palestinians get "weapons" they often have such random stuff as slingshots. Israel is quick to point out that those are dangerous and can be lethal as well, but the truth is that apart from the cheap rockets that the terrorists have Palestinians are really lightly armed. Meanwhile Israeli military is not hunting the terrorists or trying to seize the rocket launchers or anything. They are bombing buildings. Either because those buildings are rumoured to contain terrorists or their families or simply because they happen to be on the way. That is not how you do counter-terrorism, back in WW2 people would have just called it an act of war like bombing London or Dresden but these days even during wars people no longer accept targeting civilians. So either this is a war crime or simply an act of terrorism against Palestinians but attacks like this will not stop the warfare there and it will not help reducing the Palestinian terrorists (unless of course every single Palestinian is killed) instead it will make things escalate even more.

Which may be the point as it gives Israel the justification to continue their agression.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2014, 08:57:46 pm »
The IDF is targeting and bombing hospitals, including Palestine's only Rehab hospital.  Full of paralyzed patients.  Some of whom needed oxygen tanks to live.

Oh, but the IDF was so gracious as to let them know to evacuate very shortly before the bombing began.

Oh, but it's Palestine's fault somehow.  Of course.  It's never the fact that despite Israel presenting an amiable front, that they're systematically slaughtering and driving an indigenous people into a ghetto to slowly eliminate them.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2014, 09:20:14 pm »
The IDF is targeting and bombing hospitals, including Palestine's only Rehab hospital.  Full of paralyzed patients.  Some of whom needed oxygen tanks to live.

Oh, but the IDF was so gracious as to let them know to evacuate very shortly before the bombing began.

Oh, but it's Palestine's fault somehow.  Of course.  It's never the fact that despite Israel presenting an amiable front, that they're systematically slaughtering and driving an indigenous people into a ghetto to slowly eliminate them.
I agree, Israel really needs to rethink its strategy towards Palestine, and consider a two-state solution.  And the way Israel is prosecuting the war is questionable at best.  However, while I have sympathy for the Palestinian people, I have absolutely none for Hamas.

And if Israel wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians, they're doing a pretty poor job of it.  Since 1967, the population of the Palestinian territories has more than quadrupled.  You can call their treatment oppressive (because it is), but calling it genocide makes it very difficult to take you seriously.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 09:23:19 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Ironchew

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2014, 09:30:59 pm »
The Nation just did a piece on the massacre in Shejaiya:

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Gaza City—Two small bodies lie on the metal table inside the morgue at Gaza's Shifa hospital. Omama is nine years old. Her right forearm is mangled and charred and the top half of her skull has been smashed in. Beside her lies her seven year-old brother. His name is not certain. It might be Hamza or it might be Khalil. Relatives are having trouble identifying him because his head has been shorn off. Their parents will not mourn them—because they are dead too.

All of them were killed in Shejaiya, one of Gaza's poorest and most crowded neighborhoods, which came under a brutal and sustained assault by the Israeli military today.

...

It marked the bloodiest day in a blood-soaked conflict. Nearly 90 people were killed, 60 of them in Shejaiya alone, bringing the death toll in Gaza since the assault began to 425, 112 of them children, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. Over three thousand people have been injured.

What'd I say earlier in this thread? Maximum carnage. Israel's actions are indefensible and anyone that tries to defend their occupation of Palestine at this point is full of shit.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2014, 09:33:06 pm »
I agree.  If Israel wanted to go after Hamas, they should have used a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2014, 09:39:01 pm »
The current death tolls I'm seeing quoted are 100 Palestinians and 13 Israeli soldiers. Hamas is claiming to have captured some Israeli soldiers alive. 

Magus, can you post your sources for the bombing of hospitals? If it's true, then I can't think of a single way to justify it on Israels part. I honestly don't know what to say to express my feelings on the matter. If true, those who are responsible for planning and authorizing should be prosecuted for war crimes.

The Nation just did a piece on the massacre in Shejaiya:

Quote
Gaza City—Two small bodies lie on the metal table inside the morgue at Gaza's Shifa hospital. Omama is nine years old. Her right forearm is mangled and charred and the top half of her skull has been smashed in. Beside her lies her seven year-old brother. His name is not certain. It might be Hamza or it might be Khalil. Relatives are having trouble identifying him because his head has been shorn off. Their parents will not mourn them—because they are dead too.

All of them were killed in Shejaiya, one of Gaza's poorest and most crowded neighborhoods, which came under a brutal and sustained assault by the Israeli military today.

...

It marked the bloodiest day in a blood-soaked conflict. Nearly 90 people were killed, 60 of them in Shejaiya alone, bringing the death toll in Gaza since the assault began to 425, 112 of them children, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. Over three thousand people have been injured.

What'd I say earlier in this thread? Maximum carnage. Israel's actions are indefensible and anyone that tries to defend their occupation of Palestine at this point is full of shit.

There is not a single god damn excuse for this. Attacking a crowded neighborhood full of civilians isn't acceptable no matter who might be hiding there. I would love to hear what the justification for this is.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2014, 09:49:30 pm »
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 09:51:07 pm by Magus Silveresti »
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2014, 09:51:39 pm »
I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?

Offline guizonde

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2014, 09:52:28 pm »
I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?

qft.

i'm sure the rest of the world is asking a similar question.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2014, 09:53:52 pm »
There's a story circulating that 3 little boys were playing on the beach and were killed...deliberately.  The gunners on artillery used to murder them bracketed them to get a better shot.

Ironbite-tell me again how this is justified?

Offline Ironchew

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2014, 09:55:36 pm »
I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?

I hope it leads to the U.S. pulling foreign aid to Israel and levying sanctions against them. If only...
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2014, 09:58:23 pm »
I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?

I find it amusing (and more than a bit horrifying) that you think Palestine holds equal blame in this matter.  Especially after everything you just read.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2014, 10:00:25 pm »
I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?

I find it amusing (and more than a bit horrifying) that you think Palestine holds equal blame in this matter.  Especially after everything you just read.
What about all the rockets they've been firing into Israel?  I agree, that doesn't justify the slaughter of innocent people, but do you really expect them to just ignore it?