Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 43494 times)

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Offline rookie

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2016, 12:46:13 pm »
She lacked passion is what she did and had the arrogance to assume the cat was in the bag.  It was never in the bag.

Isn't that almost exactly how she lost the primaries 8 years ago?
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Offline Askold

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2016, 01:10:10 pm »
Let's be honest here... The Alt-right is just a rebranding of white-power racism to make it more acceptable to general public. http://qz.com/841036/is-steve-bannon-a-white-supremacist-trumps-advisor-wants-to-rebrand-racism-as-american-nationalism/?utm_source=qzfb
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2016, 02:20:46 pm »
She lacked passion is what she did and had the arrogance to assume the cat was in the bag.  It was never in the bag.

Isn't that almost exactly how she lost the primaries 8 years ago?

That's part of it, yes.

And speaking of primaries, there's also the fact that the DNC essentially rigged them in her favor. Say what you will about Trump, but at least he got his nomination fair and square (as far as we know), despite the GOP establishment's constant efforts to stop him. It would be admirable if he wasn't such an extremist asshole...
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2016, 02:49:11 pm »
DNC tilted the Democratic party's primary for Clinton's favor but looking at her victory margin it was far from the decisive factor. The main factors were that the southern black voters usually (and for very understandable reasons) go for what they see as the safe choice and Sanders started his campaign way too late. There was also the fact that she didn't have any real challengers besides Sanders and even he didn't realize at first that he had a chance to actually pose a challenge for her.

While it's interesting and kind of cathartic to speculate what would have happened if Sanders had jumped in earlier or if a third serious challenger like Biden had been in the race that was not how things went. In the end, the DNC's schemes only hurt both them and Clinton and the bitter irony is that she wouldn't have needed them to win the candidacy.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 02:56:45 pm by SCarpelan »

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2016, 03:13:07 pm »
DNC tilted the Democratic party's primary for Clinton's favor but looking at her victory margin it was far from the decisive factor. The main factors were that the southern black voters usually (and for very understandable reasons) go for what they see as the safe choice and Sanders started his campaign way too late. There was also the fact that she didn't have any real challengers besides Sanders and even he didn't realize at first that he had a chance to actually pose a challenge for her.

While it's interesting and kind of cathartic to speculate what would have happened if Sanders had jumped in earlier or if a third serious challenger like Biden had been in the race that was not how things went. In the end, the DNC's schemes only hurt both them and Clinton and the bitter irony is that she wouldn't have needed them to win the candidacy.

That reminds me of how my uncle said Nixon still probably would've won in '72 had he played fair. But he just had to cheat, and he screwed himself over in the long term.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2016, 06:02:48 pm »
It was a military coup. The FBI and the NYT told everyone to vote for a Nazi, so they did.
Fred, I've got to tell you. Sometimes, you make some very good points. Other times, you sound like a hysterical tin foil hat enthusiast. Guess which category your latest post falls into?
Comey's timing was a bit on the sus side.

Still, Fred (and Niam as well) isn't doing anyone any favors by talking about "coups" and "Nazis" and "incompetent degenerates". I wonder how many people realize that many, many people voted for Trump because he offered a change, and Hillary did not? That many people voted for Trump because Hillary had no platform aside from "don't vote for that other guy"? That a lot of people were concerned with the absolute multitude of baggage she was trailing around behind her? Or that she actively attempted to shut down all other fronts and information in her campaign?

...Nah, it must just be 60 million racists and sexists, right?
I don't think it's anywhere near that simple, nor do I think it's a coup but racism certainly played a part. You know what else played a part though? People not voting! Voter turnout was lower than the last two federal US elections. So yeah race-baiting, Comey's fuckery and economic malaise all played  a part but the "eh, both sides suck" crowd also owns a big share of reponsibility for this mess.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 06:42:13 pm »
I think before we start pointing fingers, we should try to understand why Trump got the support he did. From what I can see, two of the big factors were anti-establishment sentiment and just how divided America has become.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 06:47:33 pm »
Third parties got, depending on the state, two to five times more votes than the last two elections, so I do think the protest voters were a factor because apparently worthless principle is more important than keeping a fascist out of the White House to the Bernie or Bust crowd.

The problem I'm seeing on the Democratic side is that everyone is trying to find a smoking gun reason why Trump won. This is reductionist and little more than finger pointing. Comey, the fucking e-mails, the "both sides suck" crowd, Clinton being unlikable to a hell of a lot of people (still don't get why, but this is the reality), the media treating Trump with kid gloves, sexism and racism are all factors, but none of them are the smoking gun people want to point to.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 06:52:19 pm »
It's less of a single smoking gun and more.like the aftermath of a John Woo Mexican standoff gone wrong!

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2016, 06:55:43 pm »
It's less of a single smoking gun and more.like the aftermath of a John Woo Mexican standoff gone wrong!

Which is pretty much what I'm getting at. It's another case of people wanting an easy answer to a difficult problem. The Democrats have four years to sort this shit out, but I'm afraid that they're going to pick one or two of the numerous factors that lead to their defeat and ignore the rest.
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 06:56:13 pm »
Third parties got, depending on the state, two to five times more votes than the last two elections, so I do think the protest voters were a factor because apparently worthless principle is more important than keeping a fascist out of the White House to the Bernie or Bust crowd.

The problem I'm seeing on the Democratic side is that everyone is trying to find a smoking gun reason why Trump won. This is reductionist and little more than finger pointing. Comey, the fucking e-mails, the "both sides suck" crowd, Clinton being unlikable to a hell of a lot of people (still don't get why, but this is the reality), the media treating Trump with kid gloves, sexism and racism are all factors, but none of them are the smoking gun people want to point to.

I think the first step in trying to figure out why Trump won is looking at why he got enough support in the first place. When I join a new forum, I generally listen first, talk later. So I'd be interested in hearing what you guys have to say.
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Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 07:22:59 pm »
Trump won because he was highly successful in speaking to disenfranchised rural blue collared voters who have been largely feeling ignored for a long time. Their jobs have been disappearing for a long time and  what once was large booming towns filled with steel mills, or mines, or manufacturing plants are slowly turning to ghost towns filled with meth dens and crumbling infrastructure. Trump spoke out against NAFTA and TPP which a large population of middle america hate and blame for jobs going over seas. Truth is these jobs have been starting to leave way before NAFTA became a thing. Trump and Clinton were already both highly disliked candidates. What hurt Clinton was that the same people who came out for Obama didn't come out for Clinton this time. Southern blacks and younger voters didn't feel energized by Clinton's more moderate democrat stance. Blacks didn't feel they were helped out much from eight years with Obama, so why would they turn out for someone who doesn't understand them. Younger voters are growing more progressive and Clinton just seemed more status quo.
Trump was able to excite a large group of voters that were previously ignored, and they came out in droves to vote for him. Not all of them are racists, not all of them hate foreigners, but some feel he can bring their jobs back and they were willing to over look the dangerous borderline racists, sexist shit Trump has said in the past.
The truth is Trump is not going to bring the jobs back, and any jobs he tries to force to stay here will be costly. Wall street big wigs will fight him on that. He can try to impose tariffs on businesses importing goods into the US that manufactured in foreign countries, but that will just end up hurting the consumer with higher prices in an already stagnated economy with stagnated wages. Republicans want to impose tax cuts on the extremely wealthy again which is just going to hurt the middle class even more. He's not going to be able to build a wall. Republicans hate spending on infrastructure and they certainly are not going to spend billions on a pipe dream that will most likely take way past Trumps four years in office to even start development, and no Mexico is not going to pay for it. The same will happen on deportation.
Every candidate makes promises or goals that they want to accomplish that will never pass, like Obama and Gitmo. The problem is Trump spoke of grandious promises that will most likely never come to fruition. A lot of voters will most likely see this and not turn out to vote next time.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 07:25:47 pm by Id82 »

Online Art Vandelay

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2016, 08:06:44 pm »
I think before we start pointing fingers, we should try to understand why Trump got the support he did. From what I can see, two of the big factors were anti-establishment sentiment and just how divided America has become.
That and he promised to bring some measure of prosperity back to the lower classes, especially the rural poor. Now that US manufacturing is uncompetitive, those who live in the country and aren't farmers have basically no opportunities. There's fast food, and that's about it. Between that and the high cost of living in cities making it nearly impossible for those people to simple move there, they're pretty much trapped in poverty with no way out. It used to be the case that small towns would have a factory or a mine or some other large industry that would be its primary source of wealth. Nowadays those have been mostly outsourced, and the government has done nothing to help the those who've lost their livelihoods as a result. Now, Trump comes along and is the first politician, well, ever, to not only not ignore them while throwing what's left of their livelihoods under the bus with trade deals like NAFTA, but actually promise to help them by bringing back America's manufacturing industry, it's no wonder he was so well received. "Make America Great Again" didn't mean "get rid of all the Mexicans and put the darkies back in their place", unlike what some seemed to think, it means "bring back wealth and opportunities for everyone, not just the urban elite", which ironically is what the left is supposed to be about.

Which brings me to the left, which as a whole completely missed the point and assumed that Trump supporters are all just racists, and decided that hurling insults instead of actually talking to and persuading Trump supporters would ensure a win for Clinton. Well, given that people tend not to side with those that insult them, Trump's victory is far less surprising that some people seem to think it is.

Now, if anything good can come of this, it's the left getting their shit together and realising they have to do better than ignoring their opponents when they're not hurling insults at them. That they have to make the effort to talk to Trump supporters and find out from them why they support him, instead of just assuming they're racists. What can I say, it'd be nice to see activists of my ideology (well, more so than their opponents) do a little better than a campaign of name calling, followed by literal tears when, surprise fucking surprise, they lose.

Honestly, it's shit like this that almost makes me consider going alt right, if only to not be associated with a bunch of melodramatic manchildren.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2016, 09:35:37 pm »
Art acts as if econmic malaise and racism is an either/or proposition. It isn't, in fact the flames of racism and other bigotry are fanned by economic problems.

Trump not only promised to reopen mines and factories. He did it in tandemn with promising a stonking great wall between North America and it's brown skinned southern neighbours and intentionallu conflated refugees fleeing ISIS with ISIS.

FFS economic stagnation has gone hand in hand with nationalist movements promising to make their country great again AND cosh minorities and foreigners since at least the thirities.

Offline Cloud3514

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2016, 09:53:18 pm »
Never underestimate the bottomless stupidity of the average American. It doesn't matter what Trump promises. Just about all of his campaign promises were empty, except the ones that will specifically benefit the extremely wealthy and actively hurt the poor. Nothing Trump can do will bring jobs back from overseas. Nothing Trump will do will get his useless wall built. The only things his presidency will do is legitimatize racists (which his election already has), cut taxes on the wealthy, wreck the economy and repeal Obamacare. There's also real danger of Roe v. Wade and marriage equality being overturned. Trump's presidency will be a complete disaster and the worst part of it is that his voters won't just fail to realize that the Republicans have been everything that's been wrong with the federal government for the last 6 years, they have their heads so deep in the sand that they'll believe Trump every single time he pushes the blame on everyone else.
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