Author Topic: A Brutal June for Theresa May  (Read 1561 times)

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2017, 10:14:20 pm »

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Yeah Ruth Davison is gay, and is one of the saviours of the election for the Conservatives. Which makes it all the more interesting how the "stable" Conservatives are going to cope with DUP.

[He] may like like the DUP's manifesto, but this is a hard line far right Protestant party, founded by one of the most hate filled people I've ever been alive to see, Ian Paisley. [Person], when you said "as a catholic", do you realise this is a very anti-Catholic party, and the atrocities Paisley and his followers committed against Catholics was as bad, if not worse, than the IRA inflicted on others.

Think Westboro Baptist Church with added violence.

They are extremely anti-gay as well, and with 17 gay/lesbian MPs in the Tory party, how will they hope to work together?

I suspect they'll work together out of political pragmatism: the Conservatives so as not to lose more ground to Labour, now that Corbyn's proved his doubters wrong, and the DUP because they want to have the Tories by the short and curlies.
And here's where things get fucking dangerous.

The Good Friday Agreements which brought a historic accord between Northern Ireland's Catholic and Unionist communities. Free movement between Northern Ireland and Ireland and power sharing between the DUP and Sinn Feinn. The first goes out the window with a hard Brexit, the second gets shot to shit if the DUP rules the province by decree with Westminster's help and ignores Sinn Feinn, something they've longed to do for decades.

If these two things happen, that's when you'll get blood on the streets. A lot of it!

UPDATE: Not soon after May announced they had reached a deal with the DUP, she was contradicted-by the DUP who insist that negotations are continuing. Apparently the Sectarian, Creationist ultraconservatives who have the Tories by their blue-blooded balls have quite the laundry list of demands.

Lots of demands.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 10:37:21 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Katsuro

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 02:46:36 am »

EDIT:

From another forum:

From that Minneapolis-Saint Paul conservative I quoted over in the Good Things thread:

Quote
As a Catholic myself, I find much of what [the DUP] say fairly attractive, particularly compared to the Tories themselves.

From an actual Brit (raised there, but born in Minnesota, actually):

[He] may like like the DUP's manifesto, but this is a hard line far right Protestant party, founded by one of the most hate filled people I've ever been alive to see, Ian Paisley. [Person], when you said "as a catholic", do you realise this is a very anti-Catholic party, and the atrocities Paisley and his followers committed against Catholics was as bad, if not worse, than the IRA inflicted on others.

The funny thing too is the republican/nationalist "Catholic" parties (I say "catholic" because unlike the DUP they're really secular, their religion does not inform their policies it's just that nationalists traditionally tended to be Catholic and the unionists Protestant but not necessarily - Wolfe Tone  was a Protest after all) are NOTHING like the DUP.  The most progressive and liberal party in Northern Ireland these days, apart from the Green Party, is Sinn Fein for fuck sake.  Which may seem insane at first, the IRA being the former political wing of the IRA, but when you remember that The Troubles originally started over Catholic civil rights issues more or less (that is something of an over simplification of course) it makes a bit more sense.

Edit: The Catholic-Protestant thing in Northern Ireland is somewhat misunderstood by many outside NI.  It has bugger all to do with theological disagreements over how exactly one should worship God, nobody gives a fuck about that, it's more about tribalism.  If you asked most people what the actual theological differences are between Protestantism and Catholicism I guarantee most wouldn't have a fucking clue  and would probably respond with something about "taigs" "huns" and "fenian bastards".  It's a bout "them'uns" and "us'uns".  I mean do you think these people below have a deep theological understanding of Catholicism and Protestantism?  Do you think they've even set foot in a church?

« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:19:19 am by Katsuro »

Offline dpareja

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2017, 02:57:08 am »
And this is his reply to its being pointed out that the DUP was violently anti-Catholic:

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I said "as a Catholic" particularly because of their history. Isn't Ian Paisley long dead?

In the 1910s and 20s, the Democratic Party was deeply intertwined with the Ku Klux Klan, an organization that was not only violently anti-Black but violently anti-Catholic. The record-long nomination battle for the 1924 presidential nomination at the DNC was known as the "Klanbake". A platform plank that merely condemned the terrorism and violence of the Klan (not the Klan itself!) was defeated on the floor, to the roaring cheers of members who went outside and donned white hoods to celebrate.

But the Klanbake turned out to be the high-water mark of terrorism in the Democratic Party. Four years later, the Democrats nominated a Catholic for president, Al Smith (though their own anti-Catholicism severely hobbled his campaign, and he lost). Ten years later, the Klan's influence in the party was sharply limited, FDR was passing the New Deal, Catholics were openly courted by the New Deal coalition, and my Catholic great-grandparents had converted solidly to loyal Democrats -- a loyalty that would last for three generations, basically until Roe v. Wade and Ronald Reagan's pledge to combat it.

So political parties change. Politics is ugly enough, and long-lived enough, that you can't really afford to hold a grudge if change happens -- because you'll have too much a grudge against everyone to vote for any of them. So I don't really care if the DUP was shouting about the EEC being Romish Antichrist in 1977 or blowing up Catholic schools in 1985 as long as they don't hate Catholics today... just as my great-grandparents didn't care about Democrats' recent historical support of anti-Catholic rhetoric and terrorism once they cut it out and embraced Catholics. I mean, forty years ago the Left in America (marginalized by the Democrats) was out blowing up buildings and organizing for revolution. Does Bill Ayers's biography mean Bernie Sanders wants to kill police officers? I think not.

Now, I admit I don't know terribly much about DUP. I had heard of them before the election, but knew literally nothing else about them until the hung parliament result. So maybe there are a bunch of anti-Catholic terrorists still running the show. But that wasn't what I found when I googled. On the contrary, I found active attempts at outreach to voters from all faiths (or no faith) who think a lot like I do on a great many key issues.
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Offline Katsuro

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2017, 03:10:51 am »
...I found active attempts at outreach to voters from all faiths (or no faith) who think a lot like I do on a great many key issues.
[/quote]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  Fuck me that's the funniest thing I've ever read in my life.  I laughed so hard I needed medical attention.

Take it from someone who has actually lived in Northern Ireland their whole life and whose dad was a staunch Unionist and Protestant from the Shankill Road - this person has no idea wtf they're talking and needs to shut the fuck up, they're embarrassing themselves.  The DUP has zero redeeming qualities, that is not an exaggeration.  Christ, even my dad hated Ian Paisley and his ilk (he was a UUP supporter, they used to be the largest Unionist party and whilst not exactly good they're far better than the DUP).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:13:22 am by Katsuro »

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2017, 04:52:50 am »
Edit: The Catholic-Protestant thing in Northern Ireland is somewhat misunderstood by many outside NI.  It has bugger all to do with theological disagreements over how exactly one should worship God, nobody gives a fuck about that, it's more about tribalism.  If you asked most people what the actual theological differences are between Protestantism and Catholicism I guarantee most wouldn't have a fucking clue  and would probably respond with something about "taigs" "huns" and "fenian bastards".  It's a bout "them'uns" and "us'uns".  I mean do you think these people below have a deep theological understanding of Catholicism and Protestantism?  Do you think they've even set foot in a church?

Plenty of theological disagreements are less "I'm troubled by your interpretation of this text" and more "me and my mob want your shit" and/or "fuck your mob, you're different and that's bad."

Palestinians and Israelis, Serbs and Croats. Don't think these were mainly about theological disagreements.

Online Askold

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2017, 04:53:04 am »
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"

It's tribalism and that the line is drawn by religion is a matter of historic coincidence.  It may as well have been about who can trace their great great great granpa to Irish or English ancestry.
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Offline Katsuro

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2017, 06:02:35 am »
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"

It's tribalism and that the line is drawn by religion is a matter of historic coincidence.  It may as well have been about who can trace their great great great granpa to Irish or English ancestry.

I did meet a Jew a year or two ago at a stage combat course of all places (we do have a Jewish community but it's pretty small, she was the first and so far only one I've met) and, having heard of such tales, asked them if they've ever been asked if they're a Protestant or a Catholic Jew. They said yes.

Offline Katsuro

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2017, 06:18:48 am »
Edit: The Catholic-Protestant thing in Northern Ireland is somewhat misunderstood by many outside NI.  It has bugger all to do with theological disagreements over how exactly one should worship God, nobody gives a fuck about that, it's more about tribalism.  If you asked most people what the actual theological differences are between Protestantism and Catholicism I guarantee most wouldn't have a fucking clue  and would probably respond with something about "taigs" "huns" and "fenian bastards".  It's a bout "them'uns" and "us'uns".  I mean do you think these people below have a deep theological understanding of Catholicism and Protestantism?  Do you think they've even set foot in a church?

Plenty of theological disagreements are less "I'm troubled by your interpretation of this text" and more "me and my mob want your shit" and/or "fuck your mob, you're different and that's bad."

Palestinians and Israelis, Serbs and Croats. Don't think these were mainly about theological disagreements.

True, and a fair point but people here are a special kind of ignorant and a unique kind of stupid.  I'd bet money a fair number of people here in the"protestant community" don't know what Catholicism even is, that its even a religion.  All they know is, "Durrr fenians!"

Also I've heard and read things by people, including the likes of Richard Dawkins, that make it clear that some don't get it  Unlike certain terror groups in the world , for example, neither the protestant nor catholic terror groups did what they did in the name of God or because of their religious beliefs (even if some Loyalist groups did use the slogan "For God and Ulster").  People, again including Dawkins, often talk about them in a way that makes it obvious they view them as more or less being the same as some of the Islamic groups, overemphasising the religious aspect.  But the IRA wasn't trying to create a Catholic theocracy, and the protestants weren't trying to create a Protestant theocracy (except maybe the DUP lol).  Nobody shouted "God is great!" before blowing up a pub.  I mean, as I said before the man considered the father of the Republican movement was a Protestant.  I doubt the founder of ISIS or Al Queda are Christians, or Jewish, or Wiccans or whatever else.  The IRA, UDA et all can't be compared to the Islamic terror groups, I wish certain people would stop doing so.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:22:55 am by Katsuro »

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2017, 07:24:35 am »
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2017, 08:45:00 pm »
I am reminded of a Jewish reporter who had been aske if he is "Catholic or Protestant Jew?"
The Catholic Jews don't circumcise little boys, they simply suck them off.
Is that "doctrinal disagreement" sectarianism or "I want your stuff" sectarianism?

On the British politics side of things it looks like Brexit-lite is back on the table. Translation, pay all the dues but get none of the vote. Also, the DUP might play nice so long as they get their stuff.

Notably absent from this discussion has been our very own hard Brexiteer and loather of bitter Celts. Maybe his beloved Tories caving in to the EU lite option and having their bollocks squeezed firmly into a vice by the bitterest of bitter Celts could have something to do with it?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 09:28:15 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Skybison

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Re: A Brutal June for Theresa May
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2017, 02:08:15 am »
@Katsuro

For the record I think what your saying about the IRA/UDA is true for a lot of Muslim terrorists too.  Most the rank and file members at least are more motivated by tribalism and don't really know or care much about the larger ideology.  The Pulse nightclub shooter for example was a hard drinker who swore allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah apparently unaware that they are actively at war with each other.