Author Topic: IMPORTANT THINGS  (Read 9244 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2018, 01:20:28 pm »
Native Americans did have civilization. There is even claim that the laws of the Six Nations were used as an inspiration for the US constitution when it was written due to the similarities.

And Europeans did fucking commit genocide against the natives. They were herded into reservations, shot on sight, wars waged against them where civilians were targeted, their languages and history were attempted to be erased. That is genocide even if you disregard the attempts to weaponize small pox against them.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2018, 01:36:42 pm »
Really Jacob I've got a direct question for you:  What will you say when you die, and there's Huitzilopochtli waiting for you?  And he asks you why he should let you into his heaven (one of 13) when you didn't volunteer to have your heart cut out in ritual human sacrifice?  Keeping the sun rising is hard work and the God's need their blood.

Obviously we should find whoever is the closest descendant of Moctezuma the second and revive the Aztec empire (obviously everyone in Mexico would be all for this) and then go on a genocidal conquest of the rest of the world to give the Gods fresh blood and hearts.  Obviously Aztec mythology is true because many Aztecs sacrificed themselves and why would they die for a lie?

Offline dpareja

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2018, 03:38:03 pm »
And the Native Americans didn’t have civilization, so it was not a theft of their land for the Europeans to settle in the Americas. And no, America did not commit genocide against the natives, they died of small pox.

Didn't have civilization? You do realize that the US Constitution was at least partly based on how the Iroquois governed themselves, right? Just because it wasn't civilization as Christian Europeans recognized it doesn't mean it wasn't civilized.

As for smallpox, who introduced that? And even after that, must I remind you of the Trail of Tears? And, for that matter, that the US has abrogated many (if not all) of the treaties it signed with Native Americans, in some cases meaning that they are technically at war with them. (The 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie, which ended Red Cloud's War, comes to mind, having been ultimately unilaterally abrogated by the US in 1877 through their seizure of land given to the Native Americans by the treaty and thus putting the parties to that treaty back into a state of war which persists to this day, with the lands in question effectively under military occupation by the US.)

EDIT: As for Harold II and William, Harold's promise may have been made while captive, that is, under duress, which casts doubt on how legally binding it actually was.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 03:42:02 pm by dpareja »
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2018, 05:33:21 pm »
Ok, maybe it was civilization, but it was primitive tribal civilization, not advanced western civilization. And no what the US did wasn’t genocide, it was acts of warfare. The English, and Americans intent was to settle out west, bring western civilization, and have the natives assimilate into American culture and convert to Christianity.

And you can’t call smallpox genocide because it the science of it was not known was never spread intentionally with the intent of wiping out the natives. It was a horrible tragedy but not genocide.

Yeah the trail of tears was bad but that was done under America’s first DEMOCRAT president Andrew Jackson.

As for Harold and William, it was Catholic Church policy that an oath sworn before God must not be broken, which is why the Norman Invasion has a Papal Blessing. So it was legitimate.

Offline dpareja

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2018, 06:01:00 pm »
Ok, maybe it was civilization, but it was primitive tribal civilization, not advanced western civilization. And no what the US did wasn’t genocide, it was acts of warfare. The English, and Americans intent was to settle out west, bring western civilization, and have the natives assimilate into American culture and convert to Christianity.

And you can’t call smallpox genocide because it the science of it was not known was never spread intentionally with the intent of wiping out the natives. It was a horrible tragedy but not genocide.

Yeah the trail of tears was bad but that was done under America’s first DEMOCRAT president Andrew Jackson.

As for Harold and William, it was Catholic Church policy that an oath sworn before God must not be broken, which is why the Norman Invasion has a Papal Blessing. So it was legitimate.

What American culture? They hadn't exactly been there long. As for forced religious conversion, FUCK YOU YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

As for smallpox, the germ theory of disease might not exactly have been known, but it doesn't take a genius to know, "we give them these blankets, they get sick and die". Once you know that, doing it deliberately is genocide.

As for Jackson, the 1960s called, they want their political inversion back.

As for "oaths sworn before God," since no satisfactory evidence has ever been presented that such a being exists, and therefore all claims to any authority by any religion ever made have no basis in anything approximating reality, that can fuck off too--and doubly so since it was done under duress.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2018, 06:55:12 pm »
I hate to defend Jacob, but the "smallpox blankets" narrative is probably a myth. There was only one documented attempt to do so, during the 1763 Siege of Fort Pitt. Furthermore, it was done by British military officers, not the American government (since there was no American government as we know it at the time), and we don't even know if it was successful.

That being said, he's still full of shit regarding just about everything else, as dpareja so skillfully pointed out. But I'd like to add a few things of my own.

"Primitive tribal civilization?" Much of our constitution was inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy, as was pointed out earlier. You also can't ignore the facts that "settling out west" all too often involved displacing the natives who were already there, and "native assimilation" tended to be done by force.
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Offline The_Queen

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2018, 07:27:30 pm »
Don't see many important things here. Just whining about thrones and the asses that sit on them.

The reason why it matters is because of property rights. The entire Kingdom of England was the property of the Kings. Therefore it is a violation of property rights for the heirs of John Beaufort to be deprived of what their rightful property.

Who the fuck is John Beaufort? Actually, don't even answer that, I don't care.
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2018, 07:50:07 pm »
Ok, maybe it was civilization, but it was primitive tribal civilization, not advanced western civilization. And no what the US did wasn’t genocide, it was acts of warfare. The English, and Americans intent was to settle out west, bring western civilization, and have the natives assimilate into American culture and convert to Christianity.

And you can’t call smallpox genocide because it the science of it was not known was never spread intentionally with the intent of wiping out the natives. It was a horrible tragedy but not genocide.

Yeah the trail of tears was bad but that was done under America’s first DEMOCRAT president Andrew Jackson.

As for Harold and William, it was Catholic Church policy that an oath sworn before God must not be broken, which is why the Norman Invasion has a Papal Blessing. So it was legitimate.

What American culture? They hadn't exactly been there long. As for forced religious conversion, FUCK YOU YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

As for smallpox, the germ theory of disease might not exactly have been known, but it doesn't take a genius to know, "we give them these blankets, they get sick and die". Once you know that, doing it deliberately is genocide.

As for Jackson, the 1960s called, they want their political inversion back.

As for "oaths sworn before God," since no satisfactory evidence has ever been presented that such a being exists, and therefore all claims to any authority by any religion ever made have no basis in anything approximating reality, that can fuck off too--and doubly so since it was done under duress.

America’s Anglo Saxon Christian culture. Why was forced conversions bad?  It forced them to convert from more primitive religions and superstitions to a more civilized one. And as Lana Reverse said, the smallpox blankets is a myth.

And regardless of whether you believe in God or not, the Catholic Church had authority in Europe and under their religious laws, an oath sworn before their God could not be broken.

Offline dpareja

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2018, 08:12:47 pm »
Ok, maybe it was civilization, but it was primitive tribal civilization, not advanced western civilization. And no what the US did wasn’t genocide, it was acts of warfare. The English, and Americans intent was to settle out west, bring western civilization, and have the natives assimilate into American culture and convert to Christianity.

And you can’t call smallpox genocide because it the science of it was not known was never spread intentionally with the intent of wiping out the natives. It was a horrible tragedy but not genocide.

Yeah the trail of tears was bad but that was done under America’s first DEMOCRAT president Andrew Jackson.

As for Harold and William, it was Catholic Church policy that an oath sworn before God must not be broken, which is why the Norman Invasion has a Papal Blessing. So it was legitimate.

What American culture? They hadn't exactly been there long. As for forced religious conversion, FUCK YOU YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

As for smallpox, the germ theory of disease might not exactly have been known, but it doesn't take a genius to know, "we give them these blankets, they get sick and die". Once you know that, doing it deliberately is genocide.

As for Jackson, the 1960s called, they want their political inversion back.

As for "oaths sworn before God," since no satisfactory evidence has ever been presented that such a being exists, and therefore all claims to any authority by any religion ever made have no basis in anything approximating reality, that can fuck off too--and doubly so since it was done under duress.

America’s Anglo Saxon Christian culture. Why was forced conversions bad?  It forced them to convert from more primitive religions and superstitions to a more civilized one. And as Lana Reverse said, the smallpox blankets is a myth.

And regardless of whether you believe in God or not, the Catholic Church had authority in Europe and under their religious laws, an oath sworn before their God could not be broken.

Forced conversions are wrong because they violate the fundamental right to freedom of conscience and belief. And I'd hardly call a religion that sanctions slavery, condones conquest rape, orders genocide, and preaches infinite punishment for finite crimes "civilized".

The Catholic Church's claimed authority in Europe was based on an unsubstantiated myth and maintained through fear, force, and ignorance--in short, it was completely illegitimate and so, therefore, were their laws.

"Morality comes from humanism and is stolen by religion for its own purposes." -- Christopher Hitchens
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2018, 08:15:53 pm »
Ok, maybe it was civilization, but it was primitive tribal civilization, not advanced western civilization. And no what the US did wasn’t genocide, it was acts of warfare. The English, and Americans intent was to settle out west, bring western civilization, and have the natives assimilate into American culture and convert to Christianity.

And you can’t call smallpox genocide because it the science of it was not known was never spread intentionally with the intent of wiping out the natives. It was a horrible tragedy but not genocide.

Yeah the trail of tears was bad but that was done under America’s first DEMOCRAT president Andrew Jackson.

As for Harold and William, it was Catholic Church policy that an oath sworn before God must not be broken, which is why the Norman Invasion has a Papal Blessing. So it was legitimate.

What American culture? They hadn't exactly been there long. As for forced religious conversion, FUCK YOU YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

As for smallpox, the germ theory of disease might not exactly have been known, but it doesn't take a genius to know, "we give them these blankets, they get sick and die". Once you know that, doing it deliberately is genocide.

As for Jackson, the 1960s called, they want their political inversion back.

As for "oaths sworn before God," since no satisfactory evidence has ever been presented that such a being exists, and therefore all claims to any authority by any religion ever made have no basis in anything approximating reality, that can fuck off too--and doubly so since it was done under duress.

America’s Anglo Saxon Christian culture. Why was forced conversions bad?  It forced them to convert from more primitive religions and superstitions to a more civilized one. And as Lana Reverse said, the smallpox blankets is a myth.

And regardless of whether you believe in God or not, the Catholic Church had authority in Europe and under their religious laws, an oath sworn before their God could not be broken.

Why didn't you acknowledge my criticisms? You clearly read my post.
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Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2018, 08:30:15 pm »
Ok, maybe it was civilization, but it was primitive tribal civilization, not advanced western civilization. And no what the US did wasn’t genocide, it was acts of warfare. The English, and Americans intent was to settle out west, bring western civilization, and have the natives assimilate into American culture and convert to Christianity.

And you can’t call smallpox genocide because it the science of it was not known was never spread intentionally with the intent of wiping out the natives. It was a horrible tragedy but not genocide.

Yeah the trail of tears was bad but that was done under America’s first DEMOCRAT president Andrew Jackson.

As for Harold and William, it was Catholic Church policy that an oath sworn before God must not be broken, which is why the Norman Invasion has a Papal Blessing. So it was legitimate.

What American culture? They hadn't exactly been there long. As for forced religious conversion, FUCK YOU YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

As for smallpox, the germ theory of disease might not exactly have been known, but it doesn't take a genius to know, "we give them these blankets, they get sick and die". Once you know that, doing it deliberately is genocide.

As for Jackson, the 1960s called, they want their political inversion back.

As for "oaths sworn before God," since no satisfactory evidence has ever been presented that such a being exists, and therefore all claims to any authority by any religion ever made have no basis in anything approximating reality, that can fuck off too--and doubly so since it was done under duress.

America’s Anglo Saxon Christian culture. Why was forced conversions bad?  It forced them to convert from more primitive religions and superstitions to a more civilized one. And as Lana Reverse said, the smallpox blankets is a myth.

And regardless of whether you believe in God or not, the Catholic Church had authority in Europe and under their religious laws, an oath sworn before their God could not be broken.

Forced conversions are wrong because they violate the fundamental right to freedom of conscience and belief. And I'd hardly call a religion that sanctions slavery, condones conquest rape, orders genocide, and preaches infinite punishment for finite crimes "civilized".

The Catholic Church's claimed authority in Europe was based on an unsubstantiated myth and maintained through fear, force, and ignorance--in short, it was completely illegitimate and so, therefore, were their laws.

"Morality comes from humanism and is stolen by religion for its own purposes." -- Christopher Hitchens

Christianity is more civilized than the native religions because Christianity helped unify Europe during the Middle Ages, when the Europeans were converted to Christianity. The Catholic Churches got it’s authority by spreading their religion through Europe and conversions of Pagans by certain Saints. So they did spread their authority throughout Europe using legitimate means.

Offline Jacob Harrison

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2018, 08:31:50 pm »
I hate to defend Jacob, but the "smallpox blankets" narrative is probably a myth. There was only one documented attempt to do so, during the 1763 Siege of Fort Pitt. Furthermore, it was done by British military officers, not the American government (since there was no American government as we know it at the time), and we don't even know if it was successful.

That being said, he's still full of shit regarding just about everything else, as dpareja so skillfully pointed out. But I'd like to add a few things of my own.

"Primitive tribal civilization?" Much of our constitution was inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy, as was pointed out earlier. You also can't ignore the facts that "settling out west" all too often involved displacing the natives who were already there, and "native assimilation" tended to be done by force.

The Iroquois Confederacy May have inspired our constitution but they were far from being an advanced civilization like Europe.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2018, 09:12:34 pm »
I hate to defend Jacob, but the "smallpox blankets" narrative is probably a myth. There was only one documented attempt to do so, during the 1763 Siege of Fort Pitt. Furthermore, it was done by British military officers, not the American government (since there was no American government as we know it at the time), and we don't even know if it was successful.

That being said, he's still full of shit regarding just about everything else, as dpareja so skillfully pointed out. But I'd like to add a few things of my own.

"Primitive tribal civilization?" Much of our constitution was inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy, as was pointed out earlier. You also can't ignore the facts that "settling out west" all too often involved displacing the natives who were already there, and "native assimilation" tended to be done by force.

The Iroquois Confederacy May have inspired our constitution but they were far from being an advanced civilization like Europe.

How do you define "advanced civilization?"
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Offline davedan

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2018, 09:41:07 pm »
Don't see many important things here. Just whining about thrones and the asses that sit on them.

The reason why it matters is because of property rights. The entire Kingdom of England was the property of the Kings. Therefore it is a violation of property rights for the heirs of John Beaufort to be deprived of what their rightful property.

Who the fuck is John Beaufort? Actually, don't even answer that, I don't care.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't care either.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: IMPORTANT THINGS
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2018, 09:47:13 pm »
Don't see many important things here. Just whining about thrones and the asses that sit on them.

The reason why it matters is because of property rights. The entire Kingdom of England was the property of the Kings. Therefore it is a violation of property rights for the heirs of John Beaufort to be deprived of what their rightful property.

Who the fuck is John Beaufort? Actually, don't even answer that, I don't care.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't care either.

It's pretty hard to care... when you're dead.
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