Author Topic: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit  (Read 16297 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2017, 03:11:14 pm »
Check how many attacks right-wing groups and Neo-Nazis in particular have done in USA in the last 10 years. Then compare that to attacks against Neo-Nazis or right-wing groups in general to see that although some fash has been bashed and there was that one shooter who attacked congress member... There's just practically no organized terrorism from any group that could be seen as the left-wing equivalent of Neo-Nazis.

You got a few people who call themselves ANTIFA hit some heads but even from those we have as many false flag attacks as real ones. (Like that one guy who stabbed himself and tried to frame ANTIFA but admitted it eventually. OR those FB pages for supposed ANTIFA attacks or protests against Confederate statues that were right-wing trolls trying to encourage leftists to commit terrorism. All of those failed btw.)

And in the protests like the "Unite the right" rally we saw that the counter-protestors consciously tried to prevent any violence. They in fact organized people to keep an eye on fellow counter-protestors to get in between of any imminent conflicts because they didn't want people to say that they attacked Nazis.

So you've got couple dozen ANTIFA wannabes who are Ancaps or Anarchists and want to beat up Nazis, and tens of thousands of peaceful people who just don't like Nazis and are willing to march agaisnt them. And some more random people who want to violently oppose Nazis but aren't part of any groups.

Meanwhile on the Nazi side of the equation... You have organizations that are openly violent and admit that they support a genocide. You have people bringing guns, armour and melee weapons to protests AND using all of those. Guy who has  a high rank in one of the KKK offshoots called a counter-protestor a nigger and tried to shoot him. (His gun failed to fire and when he fiddled with it, it went off and hit the ground. He is now going to court for firing a gun near a church. This despite police being few meters away from him when he fired the gun. They ignored this attempted homicide until the video went viral.) There was the guy who drove over people. That was not an accident. Not an accident by the terrorist and not an accident in that he just randomly thought of using a car. Right-wing web pages have been encouraging people to run over protesters for a year at least. They have been drooling over themselves at the thought of running over people who protest against Nazis and telling each other to do it.

The violence on the "two sides" is not comparable and neither is the encouragement for violence.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2017, 03:19:26 pm »
It isn't equivalent... but when anyone on the left is preemptively violent (or overly violent in self-defence), it gives cover for those on the right to cloak themselves in a mantle of victimhood and claim that the other side is being violent and they're the ones defending themselves.

Antifa, however small it may be, is a "major gift to the right."
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Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2017, 03:41:39 pm »
Besides, Antifa doesn't just attack right-wing extremists. They've also attacked journalists, cops, and more moderate right-wingers. And since they've openly proclaimed "liberals get the bullet too"...
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Offline Askold

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2017, 03:59:19 pm »
And is ANTIFA comparable to Neo-Nazis and the other violent hate groups?
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline dpareja

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2017, 04:11:38 pm »
And is ANTIFA comparable to Neo-Nazis and the other violent hate groups?

No, but perception is often more important than reality in shaping the debate, and so if those right-wing hate groups can depict the left as being "just as bad," that's a win for them.
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Svata

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2017, 04:12:06 pm »
Also: no one seems to have acknowledged my earlier post, so rather than an image, i'm just gonna come out and say it. YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2017, 04:17:43 pm »
Also: no one seems to have acknowledged my earlier post, so rather than an image, i'm just gonna come out and say it. YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I'm not saying to have a dialogue with the people who are trying to kill you. I'm saying to show the people who still have a conscience but haven't made up their minds that WE ARE THE BETTER SIDE.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2017, 04:20:07 pm »
Besides, Antifa doesn't just attack right-wing extremists. They've also attacked journalists, cops, and more moderate right-wingers. And since they've openly proclaimed "liberals get the bullet too"...
I don't approve of a lot of what Antifa does and while I'm not a full pacifist I condemn any violence that crosses a certain line. I just have to point out that your personal Overton window needs adjusting if you really believe people like the PatriotWarriorMedia guy who got assaulted (in a way that I condemn) are "moderate". Far right is more than just neo-nazis.

Offline LeTipex

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #68 on: September 06, 2017, 04:27:21 pm »
Also: no one seems to have acknowledged my earlier post, so rather than an image, i'm just gonna come out and say it. YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I'm not saying to have a dialogue with the people who are trying to kill you. I'm saying to show the people who still have a conscience but haven't made up their minds that WE ARE THE BETTER SIDE.
At this point people who haven't made up their minds do not have a conscience.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2017, 04:31:39 pm »
Besides, Antifa doesn't just attack right-wing extremists. They've also attacked journalists, cops, and more moderate right-wingers. And since they've openly proclaimed "liberals get the bullet too"...
I don't approve of a lot of what Antifa does and while I'm not a full pacifist I condemn any violence that crosses a certain line. I just have to point out that your personal Overton window needs adjusting if you really believe people like the PatriotWarriorMedia guy who got assaulted (in a way that I condemn) are "moderate". Far right is more than just neo-nazis.

I said "more moderate". I don't consider them moderate, I just think they're less extreme than white supremacists.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2017, 04:52:47 pm »
"Less extremist" is a more descriptive way of expressing it. The difference is not purposeless nitpicking: attaching the word "moderate" in people like them even with a qualifier is part of how their extremism becomes normalized.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2017, 08:20:32 pm »
I'd also like to point out that you seem to be assuming the only reasonable response to hatred is violence. But there's a man who's walking proof that there are other options:



Meet Daryl Davis, a blues musician who actively works to improve race relations. The means he uses are unusual, and may seem outright stupid at first glance, but they've worked. He's gotten at least 200 people to abandon their hateful beliefs. And these people weren't the relatively benign "race realist" types you might come across on social media. They were card-carrying members of the KKK. So, what did he do that was so effective?

He sat down and talked to them.

I'm not exaggerating. That's pretty much what he did. So why are we assuming that violence is the best option?
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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2017, 08:44:08 pm »
I'm not exaggerating. That's pretty much what he did. So why are we assuming that violence is the best option?

Pretty easy answer to that one:

YA CAN'T HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH SOMEONE WHO'S TRYING TO KILL YOU.

Edit: Just a reminder: there were two people in Portland who tried talking to the extremist, and now they're dead. Because he stabbed them to death. Look how well 'dialogue' and 'nonviolence' worked out for them.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2017, 10:19:24 pm »
@Lana: Across what board?  Do I think a Nazi's only purpose is to fill a jail cell?  Yes.  Should people who come to a protest visibly armed be put in the same place as people who try to drunkenly piss on a neighbour's cactus?  Yes, except for repeat offenses, which will naturally lead to harsher penalties.  About what else are you talking?
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Offline davedan

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2017, 10:51:14 pm »
Urgghh, Lanagon actually has a point. Non-violence is a difficult but can be a highly effective political tool in dealing with fascists or other authoritarians. As you can see they are quite ready for violence and they feel (and probably are) protected by the arms state during those violent confrontations. Whereas non-violent responses can be more politically useful for advancing progressive causes. During the civil rights era they trained for non-violent protests and not everyone was up to it. It takes a lot of determination not to strike back when someone spits on or kicks you.

Personally when it comes to things like the Charlottesville riot I think the best response to the 'alt-right' is to mock them ala Charlie Chaplin's Dictator. Dress up as clowns. Let them know even though your dressed as a clown you're more serious than they are.

The fact is they get raging hardons about the thought of phsyical confrontation but will be terrible embarrassed if people just point and laugh.