Author Topic: This is what the police think of domestic violence  (Read 3908 times)

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Offline dpareja

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This is what the police think of domestic violence
« on: April 01, 2014, 11:58:17 am »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/accidental-voicemail-catches-rcmp-mocking-assault-complainant-1.2593744

Yes, some RCMP officers were caught making light of a woman's fear that her boyfriend would assault her.

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A Nova Scotia woman has lodged a complaint with the federal RCMP watchdog after listening to an inadvertent voicemail message in which several "Neanderthal" officers could be heard cursing and making light of a domestic assault she had reported.

...

"The way she was talking she was very nonchalant about everything," one officer can be heard saying in the conversation.

At one point they questioned the nature of her injury.

"She said it was from the f--king door jamb or something like that, on the door," one officer said. Then he adds, "It's f--king foolish."

Another officer replied, "So is the f--king accident."

Shortly after that, one officer said, "So did she deserve to get hit?" He then laughs.

Her partner is facing assault charges. The officers?

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"We immediately reached out to the victim in an effort to discuss the recording with her and the contents of that recording," Fournier said. "We've also initiated a code of conduct investigation on the members involved and we've immediately reassigned the investigation to other officers."

The woman is considering the RCMP offer to meet with her. In the meantime, she's filed a complaint with the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP and is also considering a complaint to the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

Or, probably, a slap on the wrist.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2014, 12:04:43 pm »
I thought the Mounties were better than this.  Where's Dudley Do-Right when you need him?

Offline Barbarella

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2014, 02:50:26 pm »
I thought the Mounties were better than this.  Where's Dudley Do-Right when you need him?

I'm thinking the same. Well, I guess there's idiots in every profession. I'd probably blame Harper. I don't know how a parliamentary system works but there's got to be someway of ousting that dork. Canadians are usually progressive people. I'm surprised he hasn't been voted out already. Perhaps it's easier to ditch bad leaders in the USA-style system.

Jerk cops seem to exist in practically every country. I want to give that woman a hug. At least the perp's getting charged. I hope she ditches the jerk.

Offline dpareja

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2014, 03:50:32 pm »
I'm thinking the same. Well, I guess there's idiots in every profession. I'd probably blame Harper. I don't know how a parliamentary system works but there's got to be someway of ousting that dork. Canadians are usually progressive people. I'm surprised he hasn't been voted out already. Perhaps it's easier to ditch bad leaders in the USA-style system.

The problem with the Canadian parliamentary system is that it necessarily incorporates aspects of the British and US systems.

It is a Westminster democracy: it has a lower house (House of Commons) that is generally considered to be the more powerful of the two houses, and an upper house (Senate) that is generally considered the less powerful. The executive is composed (almost) entirely of members of the lower house, and must retain the confidence of that house--if a majority of members ever vote against the government on a matter of confidence (such as budgets, the Throne Speech that opens each session of Parliament, or an explicit motion of non-confidence) the government is defeated and the viceroy either asks someone else to form a government, or, if there is nobody in the House who can reliably command majority support, dissolve Parliament and call an election.

The primary American wrinkle in this initial set-up was federalism: in the British system, Parliament has no limits on its power (as it exercises the power of the sovereign, who has no limits on her power) and, though there are Parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the powers of those are purely statutory and can be withdrawn at any time, but Canada, like the US, was formed out of independent colonies who wished to retain some of that independence after Confederation. So there is an explicit division of powers between the federal government and the provinces which puts things thought unimportant in 1867 like health care and education* in the latter's hands but puts all the taxation power in the hands of the former. (All powers not explicitly assigned to one or the other are left to the federal government, in contrast to the system in the US.)

Now, in a majority government, such as we have now, the government is drawn from a single party to which more than half of the MPs belong. This wasn't as big as a problem as it used to be when it comes to ousting bad leaders.

Back in the day, party leaders were chosen by their parliamentary caucuses. The MPs belonging to that party chose their leader, and, if said leader was proving to be a bad leader, could vote to replace him (we didn't get a female party leader until well after this changed) with another one of their number (or someone else altogether, in which case one of the MPs would step down so that the new leader could run in a by-election in the now-vacant riding). Hence MPs exercised control over the parliamentary leaders, whips were not as strong, and backbench revolts were a real threat to a sitting government.

However, in the 1960s, we began to see the glitz and glamour of US political party conventions on TV and demanded the same from our parties. From that point on, party leaders, rather than being elected by their party's caucus, have been elected by their party's membership (whether directly or indirectly). This meant that the leaders could now turn to their MPs and say, "I've got a mandate from the membership, how dare you oppose me!" This greatly reduced the power of the backbenchers and, combined with the fact that nobody can run for a party in a riding without the leader signing off on the nomination papers (even if the person in question won the nomination contest) and the fact that independent candidates rarely win, made them unable to do just about anything against their leadership.

Then combine this with the inane, archaic first-past-the-post electoral system and you get a system wherein we elect a virtual dictator for four or so years with said person's party's candidates getting maybe around 39% of all votes cast.

The one bright spot in all of this is that the Supreme Court of Canada has shown no compunctions about smacking the government (often unanimously or near-unanimously) when they're in violation of the Constitution even though more than half the current Justices were appointed by the current Prime Minister.**

*That's a rant unto itself.

**They also wholly reject the doctrine of originalism thanks to the Persons Case (Edwards v Canada), in which a bunch of women sued for their right to be recognised as "persons" as the term was used in the Constitution. The Supreme Court rejected their application, but as the final court of appeal for Canada at the time was the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council (in the UK) they appealed there and Viscount Sankey reversed the decision:

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The exclusion of women from all public offices is a relic of days more barbarous than ours, but it must be remembered that the necessity of the times often forced on man customs which in later years were not necessary.

...

The word "person" as above mentioned may include members of both sexes, and to those who ask why the word should include females, the obvious answer is why should it not.

He also laid down what is now one of the fundamental principles of Canadian jurisprudence and the main grounds for the rejection of originalism:

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The British North America Act planted in Canada a living tree capable of growth and expansion within its natural limits. The object of the Act was to grant a Constitution to Canada. Like all written constitutions it has been subject to development through usage and convention. [citation omitted]

Their Lordships do not conceive it to be the duty of this Board -- it is certainly not their desire -- to cut down the provisions of the Act by a narrow and technical construction, but rather to give it a large and liberal interpretation so that the Dominion to a great extent, but within certain fixed limits, may be mistress in her own house, as the provinces to a great extent, but within certain fixed limits, are mistresses in theirs.

(The full decision can be found at http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/en/browseSubjects/edwardspc.asp.)

This has become known as the "living tree" doctrine. Its usage can be perhaps best expressed by the following excerpt from the decision in Reference re Same-Sex Marriage (full decision at http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/2196/index.do):

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Section 1 of the proposed legislation is intra vires Parliament. In pith and substance, s. 1 pertains to the legal capacity for civil marriage and falls within the subject matter of s. 91(26) of the Constitution Act, 1867. Section 91(26) did not entrench the common law definition of "marriage" as it stood in 1867. The "frozen concepts" reasoning runs contrary to one of the most fundamental principles of Canadian constitutional interpretation: that our Constitution is a living tree which, by way of progressive interpretation, accommodates and addresses the realities of modern life. Read expansively, the word "marriage" in s. 91(26) does not exclude same-sex marriage.

...

Some interveners nevertheless suggested that s. 91(26) cannot be interpreted as granting legislative competence over same-sex marriage to Parliament. Any law allowing same-sex marriage is alleged to exceed the bounds of s. 91(26) in two key respects:  (i) the meaning of “marriage” is constitutionally fixed, necessarily incorporating an opposite-sex requirement...

...

Several interveners say that the Constitution Act, 1867 effectively entrenches the common law definition of “marriage” as it stood in 1867. That definition was most notably articulated in Hyde v. Hyde (1866), L.R. 1 P. & D. 130, at p. 133:

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What, then, is the nature of this institution as understood in Christendom? Its incidents may vary in different countries, but what are its essential elements and invariable features?  If it be of common acceptance and existence, it must needs (however varied in different countries in its minor incidents) have some pervading identity and universal basis.  I conceive that marriage, as understood in Christendom, may for this purpose be defined as the voluntary union for life of one man and one woman, to the exclusion of all others.

The reference to “Christendom” is telling.  Hyde spoke to a society of shared social values where marriage and religion were thought to be inseparable.  This is no longer the case.  Canada is a pluralistic society.  Marriage, from the perspective of the state, is a civil institution.  The “frozen concepts” reasoning runs contrary to one of the most fundamental principles of Canadian constitutional interpretation:  that our Constitution is a living tree which, by way of progressive interpretation, accommodates and addresses the realities of modern life.  In the 1920s, for example, a controversy arose as to whether women as well as men were capable of being considered “qualified persons” eligible for appointment to the Senate of Canada.  Legal precedent stretching back to Roman Law was cited for the proposition that women had always been considered “unqualified” for public office, and it was argued that this common understanding in 1867 was incorporated in s. 24 of the Constitution Act, 1867 and should continue to govern Canadians in succeeding ages.  Speaking for the Privy Council in Edwards v. Attorney-General for Canada, [1930] A.C. 124 (P.C.) (the “Persons” case),  Lord Sankey L.C. said at p. 136:

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Their Lordships do not conceive it to be the duty of this Board — it is certainly not their desire — to cut down the provisions of the [B.N.A.] Act by a narrow and technical construction, but rather to give it a large and liberal interpretation so that the Dominion to a great extent, but within certain fixed limits, may be mistress in her own house, as the Provinces to a great extent, but within certain fixed limits, are mistresses in theirs. [Emphasis added.]

This approach applies to the construction of the powers enumerated in ss. 91 and 92 of the Constitution Act, 1867.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline I am lizard

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2014, 09:40:28 pm »
I thought the Mounties were better than this.  Where's Dudley Do-Right when you need him?
Perhaps it's easier to ditch bad leaders in the USA-style system.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Offline Barbarella

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2014, 11:33:42 pm »
I thought the Mounties were better than this.  Where's Dudley Do-Right when you need him?
Perhaps it's easier to ditch bad leaders in the USA-style system.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Yeah, I know that sounded really stupid but I just meant "generally" not in reality. I meant to make a point but it came out all wrong. Sorry about that.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2014, 11:36:34 pm »
Maybe it's because they're Canucks.  "Your husband's beating you, eh?  Well, good luck with that!  Now I'm off to hunt some moose".

Offline I am lizard

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2014, 02:31:28 am »
I thought the Mounties were better than this.  Where's Dudley Do-Right when you need him?
Perhaps it's easier to ditch bad leaders in the USA-style system.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Yeah, I know that sounded really stupid but I just meant "generally" not in reality. I meant to make a point but it came out all wrong. Sorry about that.
No need to apologies.

Wait, you're canadian, aren't you?

Offline Barbarella

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 01:32:01 pm »
I thought the Mounties were better than this.  Where's Dudley Do-Right when you need him?
Perhaps it's easier to ditch bad leaders in the USA-style system.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

Yeah, I know that sounded really stupid but I just meant "generally" not in reality. I meant to make a point but it came out all wrong. Sorry about that.
No need to apologies.

Wait, you're canadian, aren't you?

No, I'm from *sigh* The States. Yes, it's hard to get rid of our wingnuts here, too. I just assumed that Canadians were far more progressive & was baffled that they haven't ditched Harper by now. At least in the States, deciding who's in charge is...generally...based on the people voting them in & out directly.

So, a Parliamentary System, if I'm correct, is when the people don't vote for Head-of-State but instead vote for the politicians who then vote for the Head of State. If the US Govt. were, in a hypothetical alternate universe, a Parliamentary system, this would be like the people voting for only the Congresspeople but only the Congresspeople can vote in the President, amirite?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2014, 02:30:57 pm »
Quote
No, I'm from *sigh* The States. Yes, it's hard to get rid of our wingnuts here, too. I just assumed that Canadians were far more progressive & was baffled that they haven't ditched Harper by now. At least in the States, deciding who's in charge is...generally...based on the people voting them in & out directly.

So, a Parliamentary System, if I'm correct, is when the people don't vote for Head-of-State but instead vote for the politicians who then vote for the Head of State. If the US Govt. were, in a hypothetical alternate universe, a Parliamentary system, this would be like the people voting for only the Congresspeople but only the Congresspeople can vote in the President, amirite?
In most cases, yes.  As you can imagine, this can lead to serious problems.  A Prime Minister can be loathed by the people, but as long as the MPs of his party like him and can keep their majority, he's secure.  Imagine if Speaker Boehner was de jure head of government.  More to the point, imagine him keeping his job despite having a 12% approval rating.  In a parliamentary system, it's entirely possible.

Offline dpareja

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 02:51:04 pm »
No, I'm from *sigh* The States. Yes, it's hard to get rid of our wingnuts here, too. I just assumed that Canadians were far more progressive & was baffled that they haven't ditched Harper by now. At least in the States, deciding who's in charge is...generally...based on the people voting them in & out directly.

So, a Parliamentary System, if I'm correct, is when the people don't vote for Head-of-State but instead vote for the politicians who then vote for the Head of State. If the US Govt. were, in a hypothetical alternate universe, a Parliamentary system, this would be like the people voting for only the Congresspeople but only the Congresspeople can vote in the President, amirite?

The Head of State of Canada is the Queen, Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. (She isn't actually the second Queen of Canada by that name, but every current Commonwealth Realm accords her the regnal number.*) The heir apparent is her eldest son, Charles, Prince of Wales. Her viceroy is the Governor General, His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, and she also has a viceroy in each province, the Lieutenant Governor (who have the style His/Her Honour the Honourable), and a Commissioner in each territory. Each viceroy is appointed by the Queen of Canada on the advice of her Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Stephen Harper. (Although the viceroy is not Head of State, he or she typically undertakes state visits on behalf of Canada.)

The Prime Minister is the Head of Government. He or she is usually a Member of the House of Commons, and is elected as such by the voters in his or her riding. (In the case of the current incumbent, he is the Member of Parliament for Calgary Southwest.) He is leader of the Conservative Party because the members of that party voted for him to be leader and, as the leader of the party holding a plurality of seats in the House of Commons after the 2006 general election, was invited by the Governor General (then Her Excellency the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean) to form a (minority) government in which he would be Prime Minister. He retained the position as he remained leader of his party and his party again held a plurality of seats after the 2008 general election, and then a majority of seats after the 2011 general election. However, while he is not nominally the head of the executive branch of government (that would be the Queen), he is so for all practical purposes.

The President of the US is certainly the Head of State of that country, but it is difficult to say who the Head of Government is, due to the fact that its Houses are much closer in power than the lower and upper houses are in many parliamentary systems and the fact that the President is not a member of a legislative body. (He can only accept or reject bills passed by Congress in whole--he cannot approve some parts while rejecting others. Some state Governors have this power of line-item veto.) It is of course easy to say who the heads of the two Houses are--The Honorable John Boehner for the House of Representatives and The Honorable Joe Biden for the Senate, in his capacity as President of the Senate--but neither could be said to be Head of Government. (Indeed one could well argue that The Honorable Harry Reid, Majority Leader of the United States Senate, has more of a claim to being Head of Government than the Vice President.)

I have best seen it put more or less thus. The US model is based on a strict separation of powers between the legislative and executive branches. The Westminster model is based on a fusion of the powers of the legislative and executive branches. The government in effect wields the executive power, but only so long as the legislature allows--the executive must retain the confidence of the legislature and is responsible to the legislature (hence the term "responsible government" for the system). This is usually not an issue as the executive can under normal circumstances control a majority of the votes in the legislature. In the US system, on the other hand, the executive in general does not serve only at the pleasure of the legislature. (There is of course provision for the President to be removed from office, but it has only been attempted twice and has never succeeded. By contrast, multiple Canadian governments have fallen on matters of confidence: Arthur Meighen's government in 1926, John Diefenbaker's government in 1963, Lester Pearson's government in 1968**, Pierre Trudeau's government in 1974***, Joe Clark's government in 1979, Paul Martin's government in 2005****, and Stephen Harper's government in 2011*****.)

*Apparently if Scotland secedes from the United Kingdom they will remain a Commonwealth Realm with Elizabeth as Queen, and will likely not accord her the regnal number. There's sentiment in Scotland that the Queen should not call herself Elizabeth II while there, as she is the first Elizabeth to be Queen of Scotland (or, rather, Queen of Scots), and should simply call herself Queen Elizabeth. Similarly, while Prince Charles is given the title Prince of Wales almost everywhere else (except in Cornwall where he's Duke of Cornwall) he is Duke of Rothesay in Scotland as that is the traditional title of the heir to the throne of Scotland, and his wife, Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (she is also Princess of Wales but declines to use the title, and Duchess of Cornwall is her second-highest-ranking title) is called Camilla, Duchess of Rothesay in Scotland.

**The government did not actually resign as a result of this loss--the Liberal Party was in the process of replacing Pearson with Pierre Trudeau as leader, and none of the parties were ready for an election, so they decided that the matter on which the government had lost a vote was in fact not a matter of confidence. Trudeau nonetheless asked for a dissolution of Parliament not long after he had settled into his new role as leader of the Liberal Party and Prime Minister, and won a majority in the House in the ensuing general election.

***He may have rigged this one specifically to incite a vote of non-confidence in his government--he had had to garner the support of the New Democratic Party in order to retain the confidence of the House, and while Pearson had done the same during his minority governments after the 1963 and 1965 general elections, the NDP were rather more demanding of Trudeau than they had been of Pearson, and Trudeau, reading the polls, decided the time was right to anger the NDP into voting against his government on a budgetary matter, which are automatically matters of confidence.

****This was the first time that a Canadian government fell on an explicit motion of no confidence, with no other matters of confidence on which they were likely to fall anyway being considered.

*****This too was an explicit motion of no confidence, in which the House voted to agree with a committee that had found the government in contempt of Parliament--the first time that had ever happened in Canada or any other Commonwealth country. Harper had also asked for and received a prorogation of Parliament (which causes all bills under consideration to die on the order paper) to avoid losing a vote on his government's budget earlier in that term. Somehow this is how you win majorities these days.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Yla

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 08:56:31 am »
I'm currently wondering how the structure of national-level politics is immediately affecting how local police officers handle a report of domestic violence.
That said, I've stopped trying to anticipate what people around here want a while ago, I've found it makes things smoother.
For I was an hungred, and ye told me to pull myself up by my bootstraps: I was thirsty, and ye demanded payment for the privilege of thine urine: I was a stranger, and ye deported me: naked, and ye arrested me for indecency.

Offline dpareja

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 11:11:48 am »
I'm currently wondering how the structure of national-level politics is immediately affecting how local police officers handle a report of domestic violence.

Probably not directly, but it can certainly affect how the aftermath is handled considering it was the RCMP who were involved.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2014, 11:26:27 am »
I'm currently wondering how the structure of national-level politics is immediately affecting how local police officers handle a report of domestic violence.

Probably not directly, but it can certainly affect how the aftermath is handled considering it was the RCMP who were involved.

Reading back, it started because Spuki suggested that Canada's Prime Minister was probably to blame for the Mounties' behavior and thinking that it's easier to get rid of him than it is to get rid of the United States President.
Still can't think of a signature a year later.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: This is what the police think of domestic violence
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 12:08:26 pm »
I'm currently wondering how the structure of national-level politics is immediately affecting how local police officers handle a report of domestic violence.

Probably not directly, but it can certainly affect how the aftermath is handled considering it was the RCMP who were involved.

Reading back, it started because Spuki suggested that Canada's Prime Minister was probably to blame for the Mounties' behavior and thinking that it's easier to get rid of him than it is to get rid of the United States President.

Well, not Harper directly. I meant right-wing, anti-woman, moldy-oldie thinking. I just brought up Harper because he's known to be a bit of an unlikeable right-wing guy who's trying to turn Canada into Dubya's USA. Oh course, this could just be an isolated incident with two cops who are pigs & not indicative of Canada's police in general. That said, it seems the bad apples are showing up a lot & getting slaps on wrists. Fortunately, the horrible acts of these guys were mainly barfy comments and not beatings, torture or rape. These two definitely need to be off the job....or at least give them a permanent desk job with less pay & sensitivity training. Either that or just fire their disgusting tails.