Author Topic: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up  (Read 12043 times)

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Offline Scotsgit

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 04:16:57 pm »
Isn't another issue that a lot of the nice things the Scots have are funded by the English taxpayer, and the public sector is the biggest employer?

No.  That's part of what is known as Forsyth's Faulty Figures, named after former Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Forsyth who claimed (falsely) that that majority of money that pays for Scotland comes from England.  What he failed to point out that this was money raised by UK wide tax (including Scotland) and how that was being spent in Scotland, without raising the issue that the same is done for the rest of the UK.  It's now just a myth believed by Kelvin Mackenzie and Daily Mail readers.

And the public sector is far from the biggest employer - I'd dearly love to know where you get that idea, The Daily Fail perhaps?  The biggest in Scotland is the private sector, as it is in the rest of the UK.

I'm offended you're suggesting I read the Mail.

It's cheaper than Andrex. :P

ETA:  And I'm offended that you just trotted out an old myth about Scotland, namely that we're all either public sector workers or are drawing the dole courtesy of English taxpayer.  However if lots of people in England hadn't voted Tory in the 1980's, there would be less unemployment in Scotland.  And as for public sector workers.....  Amazing how two countries can be joined at the hip, have gone through so many wars, hardships and the highs and lows of Empire and still one of the two countries has no idea about the other.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 04:28:01 pm by Scotsgit »
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Offline Scotsgit

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 04:20:24 pm »
Don't Scots make up most of the British Armed Forces?

Sounds improbable. Wikipedia tells me no such thing, and there are ten times as many inhabitants in England as there are in Scotland.

And that has nothing to do with, well, anything.

There are more people living in England than Scotland, but that doesn't mean that statistically there are more English people in the Armed Forces than Scots.  Traditionally, in the Forces the Scots have dominated the intake, followed by English and the Irish.
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Offline DiscoBerry

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 04:39:57 pm »
Thanks

Offline starseeker

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 06:35:05 pm »
Isn't another issue that a lot of the nice things the Scots have are funded by the English taxpayer, and the public sector is the biggest employer?

No.  That's part of what is known as Forsyth's Faulty Figures, named after former Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Forsyth who claimed (falsely) that that majority of money that pays for Scotland comes from England.  What he failed to point out that this was money raised by UK wide tax (including Scotland) and how that was being spent in Scotland, without raising the issue that the same is done for the rest of the UK.  It's now just a myth believed by Kelvin Mackenzie and Daily Mail readers.

And the public sector is far from the biggest employer - I'd dearly love to know where you get that idea, The Daily Fail perhaps?  The biggest in Scotland is the private sector, as it is in the rest of the UK.

I'm offended you're suggesting I read the Mail.

It's cheaper than Andrex. :P

ETA:  And I'm offended that you just trotted out an old myth about Scotland, namely that we're all either public sector workers or are drawing the dole courtesy of English taxpayer.  However if lots of people in England hadn't voted Tory in the 1980's, there would be less unemployment in Scotland.  And as for public sector workers.....  Amazing how two countries can be joined at the hip, have gone through so many wars, hardships and the highs and lows of Empire and still one of the two countries has no idea about the other.

Don't blame me for something that happened before I was born. Unfortunatly I'm in a tory safe seat so my vote's not worth a damn anyway. I suspect a good chunk of the government doesn't remember there's a country outside of London anyway, let alone anything beyond the Watford Gap.

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 07:32:20 pm »
He will however blame you for bringing up the myth about what kinds of jobs the Scots have.

Which makes me paranoid about whether I got my politics right on the last page. I used to be on the SNP message board a few years back but lost contact with them.

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Offline Meshakhad

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2012, 08:29:04 pm »
Can't they just go in for couple's counseling?
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Offline DiscoBerry

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2012, 09:22:50 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO7Uyjdypfc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO7Uyjdypfc</a>

Offline chad sexington

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 04:47:18 am »

I'm offended you're suggesting I read the Mail.

It's cheaper than Andrex. :P

Worse quality too.  Probably shred your arse if you tried using it :(

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2012, 07:46:07 pm »
Isn't another issue that a lot of the nice things the Scots have are funded by the English taxpayer, and the public sector is the biggest employer?

No.  That's part of what is known as Forsyth's Faulty Figures, named after former Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Forsyth who claimed (falsely) that that majority of money that pays for Scotland comes from England.  What he failed to point out that this was money raised by UK wide tax (including Scotland) and how that was being spent in Scotland, without raising the issue that the same is done for the rest of the UK.  It's now just a myth believed by Kelvin Mackenzie and Daily Mail readers.

And the public sector is far from the biggest employer - I'd dearly love to know where you get that idea, The Daily Fail perhaps?  The biggest in Scotland is the private sector, as it is in the rest of the UK.

Is it not the case that the average Scot receives more in government services than they pay in taxes, as do (say) the conservative areas of the United States? My understanding is that Scotland has a significantly higher poverty rate, unemployment rate and a much larger rural or remote population than England, all of which cost money.

But, and this has to be said, there's a lot at fault within the Union.  Britain's state of the Union is woeful and all too often (especially under the Conservatives) Scotland suffered badly.  For example:  When the Options for Change document to cut back the armed forces was brought in in the early '90s, many of the Scottish regiments were cut drastically or merged with other regiments.  That may sound par for the course, but consider this:  These regiments were so over-recruited at the time, they had to lend out whole companies to English regiments to make up the numbers.  In other words, units that could turn recruits away were disbanded or merged, even though they had recruits to spare.  Contrast this with the fact that there were English regiments who were left alone.  Why?  Because the places where the English regiments had recruited had returned Conservative MP's to Westminster, whereas the areas where the Scottish regiments had recruited had returned Labour, Lib-Dem and Nationalist MP's.  Consider also the fate of Rosyth Dockyard:  It was outfitted to service Nuclear submarines and was the largest employer in the Fife area.  But the contract to refit Nuclear submarines went to a Navy yard in England instead, simply because that area had returned a Conservative MP and Rosyth a Labour one.

That is disgusting. It ought to be illegal.
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Offline starseeker

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 06:27:28 am »
Interesting article on how Scotland's economy could function after independance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16548644

I'd just wonder what would happen after the oil and gas runs out.

Offline Scotsgit

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2012, 11:39:34 am »

I'm offended you're suggesting I read the Mail.

It's cheaper than Andrex. :P

Worse quality too.  Probably shred your arse if you tried using it :(

Speaking from personal experience, The Guardian is best when you run out.
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Offline Scotsgit

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2012, 11:53:03 am »
Isn't another issue that a lot of the nice things the Scots have are funded by the English taxpayer, and the public sector is the biggest employer?

No.  That's part of what is known as Forsyth's Faulty Figures, named after former Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Forsyth who claimed (falsely) that that majority of money that pays for Scotland comes from England.  What he failed to point out that this was money raised by UK wide tax (including Scotland) and how that was being spent in Scotland, without raising the issue that the same is done for the rest of the UK.  It's now just a myth believed by Kelvin Mackenzie and Daily Mail readers.

And the public sector is far from the biggest employer - I'd dearly love to know where you get that idea, The Daily Fail perhaps?  The biggest in Scotland is the private sector, as it is in the rest of the UK.

Is it not the case that the average Scot receives more in government services than they pay in taxes, as do (say) the conservative areas of the United States? My understanding is that Scotland has a significantly higher poverty rate, unemployment rate and a much larger rural or remote population than England, all of which cost money.

I can't speculate on the poverty rate as that varies in accordance with need in different regions:  There is a poverty in Scotland on a scale that would make Charles Dickens weep, but that can be seen in various areas of the UK as a whole.  What it might be in Scotland is that there is a smaller population so it's more noticeable.  The unemployment rate is higher in Scotland and the North of England than the rest of the UK, largely because these were the great industrial centres of the Empire and remained so in post-Imperial Britain.  However, Thatcher had a deep loathing of these areas as she saw them as breeding grounds for socialism (without wondering why) and was determined to destroy them.

Quote
But, and this has to be said, there's a lot at fault within the Union.  Britain's state of the Union is woeful and all too often (especially under the Conservatives) Scotland suffered badly.  For example:  When the Options for Change document to cut back the armed forces was brought in in the early '90s, many of the Scottish regiments were cut drastically or merged with other regiments.  That may sound par for the course, but consider this:  These regiments were so over-recruited at the time, they had to lend out whole companies to English regiments to make up the numbers.  In other words, units that could turn recruits away were disbanded or merged, even though they had recruits to spare.  Contrast this with the fact that there were English regiments who were left alone.  Why?  Because the places where the English regiments had recruited had returned Conservative MP's to Westminster, whereas the areas where the Scottish regiments had recruited had returned Labour, Lib-Dem and Nationalist MP's.  Consider also the fate of Rosyth Dockyard:  It was outfitted to service Nuclear submarines and was the largest employer in the Fife area.  But the contract to refit Nuclear submarines went to a Navy yard in England instead, simply because that area had returned a Conservative MP and Rosyth a Labour one.

That is disgusting. It ought to be illegal.

It should be:  In the case of the Scottish regiments, it used to be that each regiment would only have a 3 month recruiting window each year.  Some regiments like the Argyll and Sutherland, the Black Watch (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), the Royal Scots (oldest regiment of the British Army) and the Gordons would only recruit if you had a family member who had served or was serving with them.  They were in the enviable position to be able to turn away perfectly good recruits - these days, they're crying out for them.  And they were merged or disbanded due to little else than pettiness.  Is it any surprise I don't trust David Cameron?
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Offline Scotsgit

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2012, 11:55:35 am »
Isn't another issue that a lot of the nice things the Scots have are funded by the English taxpayer, and the public sector is the biggest employer?

No.  That's part of what is known as Forsyth's Faulty Figures, named after former Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Forsyth who claimed (falsely) that that majority of money that pays for Scotland comes from England.  What he failed to point out that this was money raised by UK wide tax (including Scotland) and how that was being spent in Scotland, without raising the issue that the same is done for the rest of the UK.  It's now just a myth believed by Kelvin Mackenzie and Daily Mail readers.

And the public sector is far from the biggest employer - I'd dearly love to know where you get that idea, The Daily Fail perhaps?  The biggest in Scotland is the private sector, as it is in the rest of the UK.

I'm offended you're suggesting I read the Mail.

It's cheaper than Andrex. :P

ETA:  And I'm offended that you just trotted out an old myth about Scotland, namely that we're all either public sector workers or are drawing the dole courtesy of English taxpayer.  However if lots of people in England hadn't voted Tory in the 1980's, there would be less unemployment in Scotland.  And as for public sector workers.....  Amazing how two countries can be joined at the hip, have gone through so many wars, hardships and the highs and lows of Empire and still one of the two countries has no idea about the other.

Don't blame me for something that happened before I was born. Unfortunatly I'm in a tory safe seat so my vote's not worth a damn anyway. I suspect a good chunk of the government doesn't remember there's a country outside of London anyway, let alone anything beyond the Watford Gap.

Hence the old joke:  Floods in Scotland?  On the news after the shaggy dog story.  Meteor storm in Newcastle?  Page 12 of The Sun.  Two snowflakes in London?  NATIONAL EMERGENCY!
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Offline Scotsgit

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2012, 11:59:29 am »
Interesting article on how Scotland's economy could function after independance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16548644

I'd just wonder what would happen after the oil and gas runs out.

The oil and gas will run out:  What is hoped is that in an Independent Scotland the money from it is invested in the country as whole, rather than it all going to London.  My fear is that Alex Salmond is too close to the oil companies for comfort.
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Offline starseeker

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Re: England and Scotland Weighing a Break-Up
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2012, 12:03:45 pm »
Interesting article on how Scotland's economy could function after independance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16548644

I'd just wonder what would happen after the oil and gas runs out.

The oil and gas will run out:  What is hoped is that in an Independent Scotland the money from it is invested in the country as whole, rather than it all going to London.  My fear is that Alex Salmond is too close to the oil companies for comfort.

Alex Salmond's plan seems to be

1: Get Independant Scotland
2: ???
3: Profit

It just doesn't seem to me that he's thought things through in the long term, like the costs of decommissioning the old oil-rigs and stuff like that. And then there's the RBS liability clusterfuck.