Author Topic: Do we love God?  (Read 5764 times)

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Offline Morgenleoht

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 12:54:02 am »
I always question the actual power of a deity that could create all of existence and yet not present itself physically in a form humans could handle. I've also always wondered why he had to come once and in a form that so many would doubt. If someone showed up tomorrow looking like Dr. Manhattan the world would at least acknowledge there's something going on instead of acting like House in the episode where he tricked a fellow into diagnosing Jesus as schizophrenic.

I never said me couldn't. There are a few examples of him doing just that in the Bible.

Also to attempt to answer your questions. He only came once because that all it took to accomplish what he was trying to accomplish. Also coming to earth as man/human was needed to accomplish what he was here to accomplish.

And there's examples of Odin creating men and women from ash and elm trees in the Havamal. Who's to say he isn't the One True God?
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Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 01:01:18 am »
I always question the actual power of a deity that could create all of existence and yet not present itself physically in a form humans could handle. I've also always wondered why he had to come once and in a form that so many would doubt. If someone showed up tomorrow looking like Dr. Manhattan the world would at least acknowledge there's something going on instead of acting like House in the episode where he tricked a fellow into diagnosing Jesus as schizophrenic.

I never said me couldn't. There are a few examples of him doing just that in the Bible.

Also to attempt to answer your questions. He only came once because that all it took to accomplish what he was trying to accomplish. Also coming to earth as man/human was needed to accomplish what he was here to accomplish.

And there's examples of Odin creating men and women from ash and elm trees in the Havamal. Who's to say he isn't the One True God?

I was just saying you were using the Christian God as an example. I was attempting to answer your questions about Christianity. It didn't have anything to do with any other religion, so using the Bible seemed logical to me. Since it is the bases for the religion you were talking about.

Offline Auri-El

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 05:00:29 am »
I think the point is, there's just as much "proof" of Odin as of Jesus. No one's got any scientific evidence for their existence. So until the Christian God reveals himself to be undeniably THE God, all the proof we have is the Bible. And if we're taking an ancient book of questionable origins as proof for the existence of God, then what makes the Bible more reliable than the Quran or the Havamal? Because there is actually no proof of any gods.

Offline Morgenleoht

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 06:04:55 am »
I think the point is, there's just as much "proof" of Odin as of Jesus. No one's got any scientific evidence for their existence. So until the Christian God reveals himself to be undeniably THE God, all the proof we have is the Bible. And if we're taking an ancient book of questionable origins as proof for the existence of God, then what makes the Bible more reliable than the Quran or the Havamal? Because there is actually no proof of any gods.

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 07:06:01 am »
What Kali said. Unless we all physically see a god reveal itself and prove its power, then there's no evidence besides a flimsy book.
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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 03:28:15 pm »
What Kali said. Unless we all physically see a god reveal itself and prove its power, then there's no evidence besides a flimsy book.

And unless I'm surrounded by individuals who also see this God reveal themselves, I'm going to believe that I'm having some sort of mental episode and check myself into Bellevue instead of believe in this God that just revealed themselves.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 03:43:15 pm »
What if God isn't something you can physically see? Like a person? I know I believe Jesus is in human form at the moment but you're speaking of God. If you're speaking of my God I don't know much about what he looks like other than that he is 3 separate beings, yet one. What makes you think you'd be able to handle that, assuming it is actually something you can see? Also, if you believe what I do, he did come here once before. Actually more than once, but who's counting. While he was here there were people who still didn't believe he was God. Even though they looked him right in the eye. What makes you think you'd be any different? (Not trying to make this hostile, I'm just legitimately asking you these question genuinely wanting your response.)

OK, first up, someone who doesn't already believe your holy book will not accept it as evidence that people would not believe it if he came down and interacted with us. When you ask "what makes you think you would be different?" you are implicitly assuming that the event took place and the burden of proof is on the other person to say why the scenario doesn't apply. From the other person's point of view, you are assuming something would work out in a particular way and then asking them to refute you. Essentially, you're making your own views the null hypothesis without proper justification, which is not a useful way to conduct an argument.

Second, if God actually is omnipotent, then showing himself to be beyond human should be trivial. Because, y'know, omnipotent. A being claiming fantastic powers that refuses to show said powers in unambiguous terms, when it would cost nothing, is pretty suspicious.
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Offline Star Cluster

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 04:46:14 pm »
Another thing to take into consideration, especially when trying to use the Bible as a source of reference, is that there is not one shred of corroborating evidence that Jesus, or at least the Jesus as described in the Bible, ever existed.  Which to any reasonable person should come across as odd, considering all the attributes and activities that are credited to him in the NT.  While the Bible tells of great crowds that gathered to hear him speak, to be healed, or just to catch a glimpse of him, actual contemporary historical records are completely silent concerning him.  Wouldn't you think that if he was actually living and moving around the area, which was under Roman rule, that some scribe or historian would have noticed and written it down?  After all, the Romans were notorious record keepers.  They recorded everything.  The gospels themselves have been shown to have been written no less than 40 years after Jesus was supposed to have lived.  And forget about Josephus Flavius.  Not only has the two mentions in his works been shown to be forgeries inserted into his records, but he wasn't even born until approximately 5 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.  Therefore, he couldn't possibly have been a witness to Jesus, so even if the mentions of him in Josephus' writings were not forgeries, the best they could be would be hearsay, which is not credible evidence.

Even events that weren't actually initiated by Jesus but were tied to him, such as the graveyards opening up and the dead walking at his resurrection, are never mentioned anywhere outside of the gospels.  And many times, these occurrences are only mentioned in one gospel while being ignored in the others. 

As Kali and Sigmaleph have stated, using the Bible as proof of God is meaningless unless a person is already predisposed to believe that way already.  Someone such as myself that grew up in a Christian home and attended church for 33 years only to leave the "faith," will not be so easily persuaded and will require a substantial amount of irrefutable proof to once again belief that, not only the Christian god, but any god(s), exists.

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Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 04:57:09 pm »
What if God isn't something you can physically see? Like a person? I know I believe Jesus is in human form at the moment but you're speaking of God. If you're speaking of my God I don't know much about what he looks like other than that he is 3 separate beings, yet one. What makes you think you'd be able to handle that, assuming it is actually something you can see? Also, if you believe what I do, he did come here once before. Actually more than once, but who's counting. While he was here there were people who still didn't believe he was God. Even though they looked him right in the eye. What makes you think you'd be any different? (Not trying to make this hostile, I'm just legitimately asking you these question genuinely wanting your response.)

OK, first up, someone who doesn't already believe your holy book will not accept it as evidence that people would not believe it if he came down and interacted with us. When you ask "what makes you think you would be different?" you are implicitly assuming that the event took place and the burden of proof is on the other person to say why the scenario doesn't apply. From the other person's point of view, you are assuming something would work out in a particular way and then asking them to refute you. Essentially, you're making your own views the null hypothesis without proper justification, which is not a useful way to conduct an argument.

Second, if God actually is omnipotent, then showing himself to be beyond human should be trivial. Because, y'know, omnipotent. A being claiming fantastic powers that refuses to show said powers in unambiguous terms, when it would cost nothing, is pretty suspicious.
With all due respect, isn't that kind of what were all doing here? Creating a scenerio we believe to be true and expecting it to actually be the case if said thing were to happen. I'm just trying to relay that what you guys think of as irrefutable evidence may not be as irrefutable as you think. The bottom line is, I think that a lot of people don't believe simply because they don't want to. No body of evidence would ever be enough to convince them to believe something they don't want to believe. I'm not saying its you, but it could be. Just something to think about before you say, well this would without a shadow of a doubt convince me.

Also point taken about using the Bible as a reference. It is so true to me sometimes I forget we all don't agree it's true and it slips in there.

Offline R. U. Sirius

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 05:03:29 pm »
What if God isn't something you can physically see? Like a person? I know I believe Jesus is in human form at the moment but you're speaking of God. If you're speaking of my God I don't know much about what he looks like other than that he is 3 separate beings, yet one. What makes you think you'd be able to handle that, assuming it is actually something you can see? Also, if you believe what I do, he did come here once before. Actually more than once, but who's counting. While he was here there were people who still didn't believe he was God. Even though they looked him right in the eye. What makes you think you'd be any different? (Not trying to make this hostile, I'm just legitimately asking you these question genuinely wanting your response.)

OK, first up, someone who doesn't already believe your holy book will not accept it as evidence that people would not believe it if he came down and interacted with us. When you ask "what makes you think you would be different?" you are implicitly assuming that the event took place and the burden of proof is on the other person to say why the scenario doesn't apply. From the other person's point of view, you are assuming something would work out in a particular way and then asking them to refute you. Essentially, you're making your own views the null hypothesis without proper justification, which is not a useful way to conduct an argument.

Second, if God actually is omnipotent, then showing himself to be beyond human should be trivial. Because, y'know, omnipotent. A being claiming fantastic powers that refuses to show said powers in unambiguous terms, when it would cost nothing, is pretty suspicious.
With all due respect, isn't that kind of what were all doing here? Creating a scenerio we believe to be true and expecting it to actually be the case if said thing were to happen. I'm just trying to relay that what you guys think of as irrefutable evidence may not be as irrefutable as you think. The bottom line is, I think that a lot of people don't believe simply because they don't want to. No body of evidence would ever be enough to convince them to believe something they don't want to believe. I'm not saying its you, but it could be. Just something to think about before you say, well this would without a shadow of a doubt convince me.

Also point taken about using the Bible as a reference. It is so true to me sometimes I forget we all don't agree it's true and it slips in there.

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Okay, that was uncalled for. Point remains, though, that your statement can apply just as easily to Christians as to anyone else. Look at all the hoopla over teaching evolution, despite the mountains of evidence for it and the absolute lack of evidence for the Biblical account.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2013, 05:09:07 pm »
With all due respect, isn't that kind of what were all doing here? Creating a scenerio we believe to be true and expecting it to actually be the case if said thing were to happen.

Arguably so, but not all scenarios are created equal. The point here is not that you can't create hypothetical scenarios, it's that, if you do and expect them to convince anyone, you'd best start from some common ground.

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I'm just trying to relay that what you guys think of as irrefutable evidence may not be as irrefutable as you think. The bottom line is, I think that a lot of people don't believe simply because they don't want to. No body of evidence would ever be enough to convince them to believe something they don't want to believe. I'm not saying its you, but it could be. Just something to think about before you say, well this would without a shadow of a doubt convince me.

Actually a valid point, people do tend to cling to their beliefs in the face of contradicting evidence (all people, though to different degrees). I am aware of that risk and try to account for it. All that being said, I think I am justified in thinking that a) there must be some amount of evidence that would convince most people* and b) coming up with that level of evidence should be trivial for a being like God. Because, and I cannot emphasise this enough, omnipotent.


*Interesting side-point to consider: Assuming that I'm wrong, God created humans, and some humans are so stubborn in their beliefs that they won't accept any amount of evidence in favour of the existence of God, what does that say about God's skill at designing rational beings?
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Offline Beccs

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2013, 07:54:29 pm »
God forgave us by sacrificing his own life, so that, we, who betrayed him may have peace and joy for all eternity. He told us that if we love him we would keep his commandments by loving one another as he has loved us.
Therefore, do we love God, if we:
1) refuse to forgive others as God forgave us?
2) have hate, greed, revenge, pride and lust in our heart?
3) refuse to sacrifice our own interest in order to bring healing to those who hurt and betray us?
4) refuse to stay faithful to our marriage covenant when there is hurt and betrayal?

Do I love fictional beings?

Depends on the fictional being, though the term "love" does not apply for me.

Do I love the god of the bible?  No.  If such a being truly existed then the events of the OT actually occurred and I couldn't love a being that evil.

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2013, 08:12:14 pm »
Why would I love a being that...

A: Considers "free will" a bad thing? (See: Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil)
B: Has personally killed millions more people than the Devil has
C: Admits to having created evil.
D: Subverts people's free will (see: Moses and the Pharaoh)
E: Is a book.  Because seriously, the fundies I know of worship the Bible far, FAR more than they worship God.
F: Allows a rapist who converts at the last second to go to heaven, while making sure that an atheist doctor who has saved millions of lives goes to hell?
G: Sends people to "hell" in the first place.

God is, according to the Bible itself (other than him insisting that he's "perfect") a fallacious deity who demonstrably does NOT have omniscience, kills people because they won't love him, claims to be the "perfect father" but yet condemns people to eternal torment simply because they didn't tick the right box, had to kill an aspect of himself to save people from himself, punished an entire nation for 40 years because they were scared of people who would rightly kick their ass...

Quite frankly, the God of the Bible is more like... the childish version of Zeus, to be honest.  And that's actually a rather impressive feat considering all of the mythology surrounding Zeus' inability to control himself.  (Though unlike Biblical mythology, Greek mythology was never intended to be taken fully literally.  No more than TV shows today, at least.)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 08:17:07 pm by Magus Silveresti »
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Offline Patches

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2013, 08:21:45 pm »
Okay, here's a quick run-down of why "God cannot be observed" is functionally equivalent to "God does not exist":

1. All forces in the universe are detected through their interactions with other objects.  Light, sound, and energy directly interact with our senses and measurement instruments; other forces that cannot be directly observed can be concluded to exist based on their influence on other objects, such as wind, dark matter, magnetism, and electricity.

2. If something's presence is undetectable, it by definition exerts zero force on anything in the universe.

3. Something that exerts zero influence on anything in the universe is functionally identical to something that does not exist.

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Do we love God?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2013, 08:38:12 pm »
"Do we love God?"

I can't speak for everyone here, but as for me, no, not particularly.
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