Author Topic: Best of Social Justice- Redux  (Read 7300 times)

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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 06:34:03 pm »
Do you mean "cis people pretending to be transgender for... some reason" transtrenders or "noncis people who experience their gender in a way that does not fall into a gender binary and aren't closeted about it" transtrenders? Because calling the latter kind "transtrenders" is skeevy as nobs.

The former.

What do you hope to gain from determining whether a trans person is "faking it" or not? It's hard to imagine any outcome that wouldn't further the cause of institutional transphobia.
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Offline Even Then

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 07:46:13 pm »
So how can you define that any given trans person is "faking it", aside from them literally coming out and saying "I'm actually cis but I'm pretending to be trans for cool points even though trans people are dehumanized pretty much all around"?
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2016, 07:47:06 pm »
Do you mean "cis people pretending to be transgender for... some reason" transtrenders or "noncis people who experience their gender in a way that does not fall into a gender binary and aren't closeted about it" transtrenders? Because calling the latter kind "transtrenders" is skeevy as nobs.

The former.

Um. Cis people saying they are trans is a thing that happens enough to be a problem now?
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Offline davedan

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 08:08:07 pm »
Do you mean "cis people pretending to be transgender for... some reason" transtrenders or "noncis people who experience their gender in a way that does not fall into a gender binary and aren't closeted about it" transtrenders? Because calling the latter kind "transtrenders" is skeevy as nobs.

The former.

Um. Cis people saying they are trans is a thing that happens enough to be a problem now?

Apparently it's a big problem in public toilets.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2016, 08:46:43 pm »
So how can you define that any given trans person is "faking it", aside from them literally coming out and saying "I'm actually cis but I'm pretending to be trans for cool points even though trans people are dehumanized pretty much all around"?

They outright said they didn't experience dysphoria, but still considered themselves trans.

Offline Even Then

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2016, 09:21:05 pm »
So, your criteria for "fake trans" is "doesn't experience body dysphoria".
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However, intelligent people can see the same issues, evidence, and inferences, and reach different conclusions. That is the human experience.

If you see me posting something you perceive as a contradiction of things I said before, then you should probably only regard the thing I said most recently as relevant: past me is an idiot.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2016, 09:37:55 pm »
So, your criteria for "fake trans" is "doesn't experience body dysphoria".

Isn't experiencing gender dysphoria the definition of being trans?  Before SRS, of course.

Offline Even Then

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2016, 10:03:25 pm »
Actually, no. a dictionary definition is not an argument in and of itself; but if it was instated into a dictionary, then obviously a notably large amount of people uses the word in that fashion. EDIT: And yeah, the definition has some problems (assuming that gender identities correspond with sex to begin with, equating being transgender with being a transvestite) but it still disproves the notion that the """official""" definition of being transgender includes dysphoria.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 10:59:38 pm by Even Then »
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However, intelligent people can see the same issues, evidence, and inferences, and reach different conclusions. That is the human experience.

If you see me posting something you perceive as a contradiction of things I said before, then you should probably only regard the thing I said most recently as relevant: past me is an idiot.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2016, 10:53:26 pm »
So, your criteria for "fake trans" is "doesn't experience body dysphoria".

Isn't experiencing gender dysphoria the definition of being trans?  Before SRS, of course.

Are you sure that your brother is trans?
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2016, 11:33:33 pm »
So how can you define that any given trans person is "faking it", aside from them literally coming out and saying "I'm actually cis but I'm pretending to be trans for cool points even though trans people are dehumanized pretty much all around"?

They outright said they didn't experience dysphoria, but still considered themselves trans.

People mean different things by dysphoria. For some, it means an intense negative feeling associated with their gender. For others, it's just a preference to be treated as another gender. Usually, when people say they  are trans but "don't have dysphoria" they mean "I can live with my ASAB but would be much happier with another gender". Which is, y'know, still dysphoria and still a good enough to say you're trans.

(like, given the diagnostic criteria for gender identity disorder, it's really really hard to say you're trans and not qualify. Asking that people use different pronouns for you is halfway there)
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2016, 11:52:59 pm »
UP, you presented a quote referring to some trans people as "mix and match sideshow freaks" (but don't worry it's not bigotry because they're "faking it") as the best of social justice. Your endorsement raises a few eyebrows around here, but your continued defense and clarification of it should raise red flags.
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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2016, 09:57:03 am »
If somebody really is "faking it" and you as a casual observer give them the benefit of a doubt there is little harm done. If they aren't and you mock them thinking they are faking you participate in causing emotional damage to them. Cost-benefit analysis of each action tips the weights clearly to one direction specially when you remember the suicide statistics among transpeople.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2016, 10:11:46 am »
If somebody really is "faking it" and you as a casual observer give them the benefit of a doubt there is little harm done. If they aren't and you mock them thinking they are faking you participate in causing emotional damage to them. Cost-benefit analysis of each action tips the weights clearly to one direction specially when you remember the suicide statistics among transpeople.

What if they say "truscum" unironically?

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2016, 10:20:28 am »
If somebody really is "faking it" and you as a casual observer give them the benefit of a doubt there is little harm done. If they aren't and you mock them thinking they are faking you participate in causing emotional damage to them. Cost-benefit analysis of each action tips the weights clearly to one direction specially when you remember the suicide statistics among transpeople.

What if they say "truscum" unironically?

What if a pre-teen boy popped his first boner and splooged in his parents' spaghetti sauce? Seriously, why is it that you're always the one who seems to care so much about some miniscule portion of the internet? Do you really think we're just going to forget your attempt to deny genderqueer people respect for not living up to your bullshit social standards of gender?
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Quote from: nicki
you're … a phony (as a member of the DSA, I would like you to stop calling yourself a "socialist")

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2016, 04:51:46 pm »
So, your criteria for "fake trans" is "doesn't experience body dysphoria".

Isn't experiencing gender dysphoria the definition of being trans?  Before SRS, of course.

Are you sure that your brother is trans?

Are we sure he has a brother in the first place?