Author Topic: Best of Social Justice- Redux  (Read 30248 times)

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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2016, 12:50:39 pm »
Not too busy to tell trans people they're not trans enough for a cis man's standards, apparently.

Maybe they use the word "dysphoria" in a different way than you. There are several definitions for it, you know. It's entirely possible that the people you're deciding aren't trans are using it to mean "body dysphoria" (not having a need to physically transition), which is a connotation that exists. Or, like Sigma said, an entirely different category of dysphoria than what you're using. Have these people ever actually said "my gender is the gender that was assigned to me at birth"? No? Then let's apply Occam's Razor: which is more likely? A notable-enough amount of these """transtrenders""" lying in the exact same scheme for the exact same purpose, or them expressing their actual selves? (And before you start, I'm not saying there isn't at least one person that has lied about being noncis. But your reasoning for what makes a """transtrender""" is spotty beyond all hell.)

Actually, how do you define dysphoria?

Also, your diabetes analogy is flawed because a gender is not a physical state of wellness or lack thereof, and comparing being noncis to having a disease is pretty iffy.

Huh.  Good points.

Fine then.  I'll drop it.  At least for now

Y'know, when I noticed the 1 pt text, I was half hoping you'd try for eppur si muove. Shame.

Anyway. I'm not sure if you actually expected everyone to miss that, or if you didn't. I'm also not sure which would be worse.

So. I'm kind of pissed off right now. Direct questions:

Do you think people have to binary trans people who experience body dysphoria to be legitimately trans? If not, what do you think it takes for someone to be legitimately trans, and why have you judged some people who call themselves trans to fail that?
Σא

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2016, 01:12:36 pm »
Well, I wanted to put this behind me, but I guess some people just can't let it go.

Maybe I'm wrong about this.  But hear me out.  See, when I see somebody claim to be trans and yet admit to not experiencing dysphoria, my first thought is that they're some fauxgressive snowflake who decided to use the label like it's a fashion accessory.  To me, it's like all those idiots who diagnose themselves with autism/ADHD/schizophrenia/whatever.  Or to go back a little bit, like the political lesbians of yesteryear.

Why do I think this?  My reasoning is simple when you get right down to it.  The definition of "gender dysphoria" is feeling uncomfortable with your assigned gender.  Logically, this means that people who don't have gender dysphoria have no problem with their assigned gender.  Riddle me this: if you feel comfortable with your assigned gender, how can you be trans?  The way I see it, it's like claiming to be diabetic when you have normal blood sugar.

And that's not even getting into how repulsive tucute/transtrender people can be:


Bullshit, your post specifically took umbrage with those "who turn themselves into mix and match sideshow freaks aren't transgender, it's not about being the opposite sex, it's about being special." Your post ridiculed those who do not conform to and reinforce the gender binary--most notably genderqueer people. Seriously dude, why does this bother you? They're not hurting anyone. They don't identify as male or female: but neither or an in-between. All they're really doing is blurring the lines behind bullshit social norms surrounding gender (and gender as a social construct is silly). They're not hurting people, they're active members of the transgender community (words matter, transgender is a catchall for any gender-variance and included genderqueer people, transsexual is one who typically transitions through hormonal or surgical means). Just because you found an idiot on the internet does not reinforce you post, and subsequent posts, ridiculing genderqueer people for not fitting into the gender-binary.

Ah, I think I see the problem.  See, you're using the broader definition of "trans", while I'm using the narrower one.  Seems like we're operating on a miscommunication.

Second, both you and the post tied gender dysphoria to genitals, saying "Isn't experiencing gender dysphoria the definition of being trans?  Before SRS, of course." What you post and what you say repesents an outdated view by the medical professionals that was abandoned in the early 80's. I repeat, there is no qualification about feeling dysphoria regarding your genitals in order to be trans. Your post subsequently erased and ridiculed them as phonies for not living up to your expectation of a transsexual. There are a number of trans-individuals who do not want reassignment surgery, they are called non-ops. The prevalence is more common in FtMs than MtFs, and that is why I asked--twice--if your brother is trans, which of course Paragon never responds.

Okay, that was my bad.  That was a typo I never bothered to correct.  When I typed "my brother," I meant "my cousin."  As for why I didn't answer before, I was too embarrassed to admit it.

And that is pretty shitty dude. You make up having a trans-individual in your family for one debate with Ghoti so that you could tell him that trans-people need to glorify cis-culture if we want rights. You know, that whole "win the hearts and minds" bullshit. Almost as if the onus for solving transphobia should fall on trans-individuals to be nicer and better people, instead of on cissexuals (as an aggregated group) to...you know... NOT DISCRIMINATE. The fact that you would make up such a story highlights your intellectual dishonesty. You don't care about pesky things like facts or reality (with its known liberal bias), you care only about pushing your misogynist and transphobic agenda. The fact that you made up such a story also proves that you are a concern troll, interested only in pulling the board towards your opinions. Funny, that most of those issues involve women, and you like to take the side that is harmful to women.

Harmful to radflakes, maybe.

Not too busy to tell trans people they're not trans enough for a cis man's standards, apparently.

Maybe they use the word "dysphoria" in a different way than you. There are several definitions for it, you know. It's entirely possible that the people you're deciding aren't trans are using it to mean "body dysphoria" (not having a need to physically transition), which is a connotation that exists. Or, like Sigma said, an entirely different category of dysphoria than what you're using. Have these people ever actually said "my gender is the gender that was assigned to me at birth"? No? Then let's apply Occam's Razor: which is more likely? A notable-enough amount of these """transtrenders""" lying in the exact same scheme for the exact same purpose, or them expressing their actual selves? (And before you start, I'm not saying there isn't at least one person that has lied about being noncis. But your reasoning for what makes a """transtrender""" is spotty beyond all hell.)

Actually, how do you define dysphoria?

Also, your diabetes analogy is flawed because a gender is not a physical state of wellness or lack thereof, and comparing being noncis to having a disease is pretty iffy.

Huh.  Good points.

Fine then.  I'll drop it.  At least for now

Y'know, when I noticed the 1 pt text, I was half hoping you'd try for eppur si muove. Shame.

Anyway. I'm not sure if you actually expected everyone to miss that, or if you didn't. I'm also not sure which would be worse.

So. I'm kind of pissed off right now. Direct questions:

Do you think people have to binary trans people who experience body dysphoria to be legitimately trans? If not, what do you think it takes for someone to be legitimately trans, and why have you judged some people who call themselves trans to fail that?

Again, we're operating off two different definitions.  The way I define "transgender" is "somebody who is uncomfortable/unhappy with their assigned gender."  I view it as being a subset of genderqueer, not the other way around.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 01:14:27 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2016, 01:13:40 pm »
It's kind of funny that diabetes should be brought up and pointed out that it is a flawed analogy. If you will excuse the disease comparisons I think a valid, but different comparison can be made.

I have type 1 diabetes; it's impacts on my daily life are massive and ultimately it will probably be a significant factor in an extremely unpleasant journey to an early grave. I've been living with this fact of life for sixteen years. There is nothing I can do to change this. Not surprisingly, depression is quite a common side effect. I don't suffer from it. In fact, I'm quite at peace with with myself and the circumstances of my life. I still don't want to be diabetic. If there was a way out I'd take it. (theoretically there is, but experimental surgery and anti-rejection drugs for a temporary reprieve aren't an improvement)

Just because I'm not upset by the disease doesn't mean I don't have it. Just because a transgendered person can accept that things aren't right with them doesn't mean they're not transgendered.

At best this is only passingly similar to what a transgendered person goes through, but it is at least an attempt to see things from other peoples perspectives, and it's a hell-of-a-lot more than you ever attempt UP.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2016, 01:17:00 pm »
There are certain topics that I will comment on with all the arrogance of an expert.  There are certain topics I won't touch because I can't ever put myself in the shoes of someone who the topic is concerning.

Ironbite-I suggest UP, you do the same.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2016, 01:20:20 pm »
There are certain topics that I will comment on with all the arrogance of an expert.  There are certain topics I won't touch because I can't ever put myself in the shoes of someone who the topic is concerning.

Ironbite-I suggest UP, you do the same.

Sound advice.  Which is why I went to an LGBT forum and asked the question.  Here's what I think is the most succinct response to "do you need dysphoria to be trans?":

Quote
No, because it's not a part of the definition of being trans. However, as many have already mentioned, how a person experiences gender dysphoria can vary from person to person, and I've not encountered a single trans person who didn't experience gender dysphoria in some way at some point in their life.

So it's a bit like this metaphor: do you have to have fur to be a mammal? No, you have to be a part of the mammalia class. But pretty much all mammals have some kind of hair at some point in their life (even if it's just tiny peach fuzz).

And the vast majority of the answers were along these lines.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2016, 01:25:01 pm »
*facelaws*

God you're fucking stupid.

Ironbite-you're worse then Skyfire.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2016, 02:46:12 pm »
UP right now:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0</a>
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2016, 04:56:37 pm »
*facelaws*

God you're fucking stupid.

Ironbite-you're worse then Skyfire.

Protip: if you want to question somebody else's intelligence, don't mix up your homophones.

But I'll bite.  Why do you think I'm stupid?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 05:21:23 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline davedan

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2016, 05:29:43 pm »
I think he got the homophones right. 'you're' as in 'you are'. As opposed to your fucking stupid, in that the stupid belongs to you.

But then again mixing up there, their and they're and your and you're and here and hear is a lot fucking easier than cousin and brother. In fact I don't see how that can possibly be a typo.

One thing I do admire about you UP is that you have huge brass hide. I mean you just got caught in a massive lie and didn't even blink.

You are truly Christlike in your ability to dissemble and harder than a viagra laced high school footbal team.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2016, 05:34:06 pm »
I think he got the homophones right. 'you're' as in 'you are'. As opposed to your fucking stupid, in that the stupid belongs to you.

But then again mixing up there, their and they're and your and you're and here and hear is a lot fucking easier than cousin and brother. In fact I don't see how that can possibly be a typo.

One thing I do admire about you UP is that you have huge brass hide. I mean you just got caught in a massive lie and didn't even blink.

You are truly Christlike in your ability to dissemble and harder than a viagra laced high school footbal team.

I'm talking about than vs. then.  And sometimes, when I get really emotional, I don't think clearly when I type.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2016, 05:38:27 pm »
And sometimes, when I get really emotional, I don't think clearly when I type.

My head is swimming with punchlines.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline davedan

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2016, 05:39:11 pm »
Technically not a homophone as they are pronounced differently but...

Its still only one letter as opposed to c-o-u-s-i-n or b-r-o-t-h-e-r. Then again are you a pacific islander? Was he/she your cousin-brother?

Then again do you really expect anyone to believe that a person who would lie about something like that to argue on the internet wouldn't lie about a typo?

You have less credibility than the guy who defended wanking to 8 year olds! oh fuck that was you too.

Offline davedan

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2016, 05:40:40 pm »
And sometimes, when I get really emotional, I don't think clearly when I type.

My head is swimming with punchlines.

Don't hold back, the time for mocking UP is now.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2016, 05:44:45 pm »
*facelaws*

God you're fucking stupid.

Ironbite-you're worse then Skyfire.

Protip: if you want to question somebody else's intelligence, don't mix up your homophones.

But I'll bite.  Why do you think I'm stupid?

Are you...are you actually asking that?  2 years of your bullshit and you're asking that?  Really?  REALLY?  REALLY?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxiQ9JCKvE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxiQ9JCKvE</a>

I don't even know with you.  And the fact that you can't seem to realize the difference between your and you're just cements your stupidity.  To properly vent on how stupid you are, we'd have to be in flame and burn.  But as to why I declared you're really fucking stupid, well look at your post before my declaration.  You say you went to a LGBT forum and posed the question that started this whole bullshit trip down the black hole that is your mind.  Only thing is...what LGBT forum?  We only have your word, a word who's credit is so low the devil is wondering why he's got the IRS on his ass, on that.  You could be just making up the quote you posted.  Not very had to do with the board software.  My advice buckaroo is very simple.  Drop.  It.  Just drop whatever bullshit you seem to be spewing here, take the loss, and walk away from it.  Because declaring yourself an expert on transphobia and how transgendered folk aren't really transgendered because they don't suffer dysphoria is really really really annoying.

Ironbite-and we're traveling down a road that you've already been shot on the side of again.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Best of Social Justice- Redux
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2016, 06:07:39 pm »
Paragon: direct question. When you went to the board to ask about the definition of trans, did you do it recently or 37 weeks ago?
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