Author Topic: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...  (Read 9249 times)

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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2013, 09:21:36 pm »
I'm not sure how this even counts as 'zero tolerance' since it is not even close to being a weapon or a replica of one. It doesn't even rise to the level of being a representation of one like the dreaded finger gun does.

Honestly, I will not be surprised the day I hear some administrator has met his/her end at the hands of an irate parent saying "no fuck-head, this is a gun."

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 10:18:40 pm »
I'm not sure how this even counts as 'zero tolerance' since it is not even close to being a weapon or a replica of one. It doesn't even rise to the level of being a representation of one like the dreaded finger gun does.

Honestly, I will not be surprised the day I hear some administrator has met his/her end at the hands of an irate parent saying "no fuck-head, this is a gun."

Well, that's the thing about zero tolerance: literally anything that could even be vaguely construed as harmful or illegal is immediately punished with no deliberation and no chance to negotiate (or even explain that there's no wrongdoing). It's the same system that allows for students to be arrested and expelled for having aspirin for their migraine, or arrested and expelled for a kitchen knife falling out of a box in the student's car during a move and being found by someone looking into the car (and yes this actually happened).

Zero tolerance, by its very definition, will always punish a disproportionately large number of innocent people or deliver much harsher punishments than would be necessary. But it's meant to "scare 'em straight" and prevent anyone from being able to negotiate their way out of punishment.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 10:59:51 pm »
I'm not sure how this even counts as 'zero tolerance' since it is not even close to being a weapon or a replica of one. It doesn't even rise to the level of being a representation of one like the dreaded finger gun does.

Honestly, I will not be surprised the day I hear some administrator has met his/her end at the hands of an irate parent saying "no fuck-head, this is a gun."

Well, that's the thing about zero tolerance: literally anything that could even be vaguely construed as harmful or illegal is immediately punished with no deliberation and no chance to negotiate (or even explain that there's no wrongdoing). It's the same system that allows for students to be arrested and expelled for having aspirin for their migraine, or arrested and expelled for a kitchen knife falling out of a box in the student's car during a move and being found by someone looking into the car (and yes this actually happened).

Zero tolerance, by its very definition, will always punish a disproportionately large number of innocent people or deliver much harsher punishments than would be necessary. But it's meant to "scare 'em straight" and prevent anyone from being able to negotiate their way out of punishment.

The thing is that with the aspirin, there is a technical infraction of bringing drugs to school (and not having the nurse administer it as well). Similarly, a knife in a car on school property is also a technical infraction of having weapons on campus. I can accept those as legitimate enforcement of an asinine policy because they were obvious violations of the letter of the law. A piece of paper with a torn off corner sitting in a garbage can is not by any stretch a likeness or representation of a gun, and it certainly isn't being used as one by an overly imaginative student. If they are allowed to interpret the rules this broadly, they will be suspending students for using 7 and L in their assignments, never mind what they will do to any child unfortunate to have the last name Winchester, Remington, or Colt.


Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2013, 03:11:48 am »
I'm not sure how this even counts as 'zero tolerance' since it is not even close to being a weapon or a replica of one. It doesn't even rise to the level of being a representation of one like the dreaded finger gun does.

Honestly, I will not be surprised the day I hear some administrator has met his/her end at the hands of an irate parent saying "no fuck-head, this is a gun."

Well, that's the thing about zero tolerance: literally anything that could even be vaguely construed as harmful or illegal is immediately punished with no deliberation and no chance to negotiate (or even explain that there's no wrongdoing). It's the same system that allows for students to be arrested and expelled for having aspirin for their migraine, or arrested and expelled for a kitchen knife falling out of a box in the student's car during a move and being found by someone looking into the car (and yes this actually happened).

Zero tolerance, by its very definition, will always punish a disproportionately large number of innocent people or deliver much harsher punishments than would be necessary. But it's meant to "scare 'em straight" and prevent anyone from being able to negotiate their way out of punishment.

The thing is that with the aspirin, there is a technical infraction of bringing drugs to school (and not having the nurse administer it as well). Similarly, a knife in a car on school property is also a technical infraction of having weapons on campus. I can accept those as legitimate enforcement of an asinine policy because they were obvious violations of the letter of the law. A piece of paper with a torn off corner sitting in a garbage can is not by any stretch a likeness or representation of a gun, and it certainly isn't being used as one by an overly imaginative student. If they are allowed to interpret the rules this broadly, they will be suspending students for using 7 and L in their assignments, never mind what they will do to any child unfortunate to have the last name Winchester, Remington, or Colt.

I don't think you understand "legitimate enforcement." The rules are meant to prevent kids from bringing weapons that could be used in a fight, or abusing drugs during class. Someone who brings a small amount of aspirin to deal with a headache is hardly on the level of cocaine possession, which would get punished similarly. And the incident with the knife isn't something hypothetical. It really happened, with the knife having fallen out of the box while she was moving. She was arrested and taken to jail, suspended, and banned from graduation activities. How is that legitimate enforcement?

That's the issue: normally people would have tried to determine why she had the knife and her alibi of "I was moving and it fell out of a box" could have easily been checked with her parents or her apartment roommate. Instead, she was not only immediately punished for a crime she didn't know had been committed, but she was immediately arrested and jailed for it. "It violates the letter of the law" is never an excuse, and shows why zero tolerance is so horrible.
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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2013, 04:15:23 am »
Fire everybody, charge the teacher with assault.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2013, 10:16:13 am »
I don't think you understand "legitimate enforcement." The rules are meant to prevent kids from bringing weapons that could be used in a fight, or abusing drugs during class. Someone who brings a small amount of aspirin to deal with a headache is hardly on the level of cocaine possession, which would get punished similarly. And the incident with the knife isn't something hypothetical. It really happened, with the knife having fallen out of the box while she was moving. She was arrested and taken to jail, suspended, and banned from graduation activities. How is that legitimate enforcement?

That's the issue: normally people would have tried to determine why she had the knife and her alibi of "I was moving and it fell out of a box" could have easily been checked with her parents or her apartment roommate. Instead, she was not only immediately punished for a crime she didn't know had been committed, but she was immediately arrested and jailed for it. "It violates the letter of the law" is never an excuse, and shows why zero tolerance is so horrible.

Actually, you'll find that "it violates the letter of the law" is quite legitimate in many cases. Strict and absolute liability class laws stand up to bona fide court challenges. In some cases, not having to prove intent actually a good thing -- think drunk driving laws.

A lot of schools however, have turned 'zero tolerance' into a steaming pile of bullshit by either creating such open ended policies that anything can be called a violation or allowing the enforcers of reasonable rules to interpret them far too broadly.  A school that makes a policy that bans all real and fake guns or their likenesses, and any play or threats with them isn't necessarily making a bad rule (that's more of a separate debate), but when literally anything can be made into a violation by an overzealous administrator it has.

Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 01:37:02 pm »
Thanks a lot, Obama!

Seriously though, zero-tolerance policies are some bullshit.

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2013, 01:58:21 pm »
Braindead administrators! Braindead administrators everywhere!!!!
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2013, 02:47:28 pm »
Zero tolerance laws are bullshit. I shouldn't have to get written permission from my parents, my doctor, the school nurse, and all the king's men just to bring some gelcap Advil to school. What the fuck do they think I'll use it for, anyway? Do people get high off of Advil now? Is this a thing?

Also, I remember that in elementary school I used to play "war" with this boy who was a Civil War enthusiast. When the teachers found out what we were playing, they always told us to stop because "pointing and pretend-shooting at people is not allowed."

So later we started to play Harry Potter, and we'd pick up sticks (they were more like twigs really) from around the school and point them at each other as we cast spells. Apparently this is also unacceptable because twigs are dangerous, so they told us to throw away the wands. Finally we just cut up strips of printer paper and colored them brown, and they were okay with this. But they still didn't want us to point them at each other.

In junior high, a kid was sent home for wearing a "Guns & Roses" tee shirt.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:51:15 pm by Wykked Wytch »
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2013, 03:53:57 pm »
Zero tolerance laws are bullshit. I shouldn't have to get written permission from my parents, my doctor, the school nurse, and all the king's men just to bring some gelcap Advil to school. What the fuck do they think I'll use it for, anyway? Do people get high off of Advil now? Is this a thing?

Also, I remember that in elementary school I used to play "war" with this boy who was a Civil War enthusiast. When the teachers found out what we were playing, they always told us to stop because "pointing and pretend-shooting at people is not allowed."

So later we started to play Harry Potter, and we'd pick up sticks (they were more like twigs really) from around the school and point them at each other as we cast spells. Apparently this is also unacceptable because twigs are dangerous, so they told us to throw away the wands. Finally we just cut up strips of printer paper and colored them brown, and they were okay with this. But they still didn't want us to point them at each other.

In junior high, a kid was sent home for wearing a "Guns & Roses" tee shirt.
I think the drugs are zero policy since you can kill yourself by mis-administering OTC drugs like aspirin if you try hard enough or you can give something to a friend only to find out that they are allergic to it. Then of course there are all the prescription drugs to think about. The liability is just too big for them to ignore or give the appearance of ignoring so a very hard line in the sand is drawn since there can be no debate as to whether or not they handled the situation seriously enough.

I suppose if you really want to have fun and cause some chaos you could organize a protest by getting a large number of girls go on the pill and take it during school hours. I can only imagine the howls of protest that would be emanating from some parts of the country.

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2013, 04:16:39 pm »
Zero tolerance laws are bullshit. I shouldn't have to get written permission from my parents, my doctor, the school nurse, and all the king's men just to bring some gelcap Advil to school. What the fuck do they think I'll use it for, anyway? Do people get high off of Advil now? Is this a thing?

Also, I remember that in elementary school I used to play "war" with this boy who was a Civil War enthusiast. When the teachers found out what we were playing, they always told us to stop because "pointing and pretend-shooting at people is not allowed."

So later we started to play Harry Potter, and we'd pick up sticks (they were more like twigs really) from around the school and point them at each other as we cast spells. Apparently this is also unacceptable because twigs are dangerous, so they told us to throw away the wands. Finally we just cut up strips of printer paper and colored them brown, and they were okay with this. But they still didn't want us to point them at each other.

In junior high, a kid was sent home for wearing a "Guns & Roses" tee shirt.
I think the drugs are zero policy since you can kill yourself by mis-administering OTC drugs like aspirin if you try hard enough or you can give something to a friend only to find out that they are allergic to it. Then of course there are all the prescription drugs to think about. The liability is just too big for them to ignore or give the appearance of ignoring so a very hard line in the sand is drawn since there can be no debate as to whether or not they handled the situation seriously enough.

I suppose if you really want to have fun and cause some chaos you could organize a protest by getting a large number of girls go on the pill and take it during school hours. I can only imagine the howls of protest that would be emanating from some parts of the country.

I like the trolling idea, but I'm not sure it would be possible to find enough girls willing to openly go on the pill at my school.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2013, 07:43:37 pm »
I don't think you understand "legitimate enforcement." The rules are meant to prevent kids from bringing weapons that could be used in a fight, or abusing drugs during class. Someone who brings a small amount of aspirin to deal with a headache is hardly on the level of cocaine possession, which would get punished similarly. And the incident with the knife isn't something hypothetical. It really happened, with the knife having fallen out of the box while she was moving. She was arrested and taken to jail, suspended, and banned from graduation activities. How is that legitimate enforcement?

That's the issue: normally people would have tried to determine why she had the knife and her alibi of "I was moving and it fell out of a box" could have easily been checked with her parents or her apartment roommate. Instead, she was not only immediately punished for a crime she didn't know had been committed, but she was immediately arrested and jailed for it. "It violates the letter of the law" is never an excuse, and shows why zero tolerance is so horrible.

Actually, you'll find that "it violates the letter of the law" is quite legitimate in many cases. Strict and absolute liability class laws stand up to bona fide court challenges. In some cases, not having to prove intent actually a good thing -- think drunk driving laws.

A lot of schools however, have turned 'zero tolerance' into a steaming pile of bullshit by either creating such open ended policies that anything can be called a violation or allowing the enforcers of reasonable rules to interpret them far too broadly.  A school that makes a policy that bans all real and fake guns or their likenesses, and any play or threats with them isn't necessarily making a bad rule (that's more of a separate debate), but when literally anything can be made into a violation by an overzealous administrator it has.

Not proving intent should only be applied in cases where the rule/law violation is harmful regardless of intent. Drunk driving is a 100% harmful act, even if you have an altruistic motive. Meticulously planning a murder and enacting your plan because you're afraid that the victim is planning on kidnapping and raping your daughter is not valid self-defense.

Someone who brings a small amount of Advil because they have a headache? The intent is easy to see, and they're clearly not going about any kind of harmful activity. Punishing them -- especially to the point of arrest -- without thinking about intent or the potential harm of their actions is wrong, plain and simple. The kid didn't commit a crime, so don't punish him for one. Strict interpretation of the letter of the law is what leads to this kind of bullshit, and it's sure as hell going to give the victim the wrong idea as they're growing up.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2013, 07:47:32 pm »
Imagine if we applied "zero tolerance policies" to other places.

Bringing antacids into Taco Bell?  Arrestable offense.

Have tictacs in your purse in a theater?  Clearly you're smuggling outside food in.  Arrestable offense.

Sneeze in the vicinity of other people?  Biowarfare -- arrestable offense.

Play music without headphones?  Piracy provider.  Arrestable offense.
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Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2013, 09:08:36 pm »
Not proving intent should only be applied in cases where the rule/law violation is harmful regardless of intent. Drunk driving is a 100% harmful act, even if you have an altruistic motive. Meticulously planning a murder and enacting your plan because you're afraid that the victim is planning on kidnapping and raping your daughter is not valid self-defense.

The irony is that not requiring intent to be found guilty of a crime as serious as drinking and driving is actually rather anomalous in the legal system. Usually it is limited to minor regulatory laws like parking tickets and similar things that have 'minor' inconveniences for the accused. Generally, throwing people in jail with this kind of law is frowned on.

Quote
Someone who brings a small amount of Advil because they have a headache? The intent is easy to see, and they're clearly not going about any kind of harmful activity. Punishing them -- especially to the point of arrest -- without thinking about intent or the potential harm of their actions is wrong, plain and simple. The kid didn't commit a crime, so don't punish him for one. Strict interpretation of the letter of the law is what leads to this kind of bullshit...
And perhaps this is where some of the problem lies, because while to a certain extent I can defend zero tolerance as a valid tool, this I agree is complete and utter bullshit. Arrest for possession of a legal substance that one step off of school property anybody may possess is far beyond a reasonable response. Zero tolerance does not have to mean one punishment fits all, but people acting like it does -- and I mean the schools, not you -- ruin any possible credibility it has. Informing the kid of the school policy, sending them home with their pills, and informing the parents of what has transpired and letting everybody know that subsequent breaches of this policy (by this individual) will be more more harshly dealt with addresses the issue quite effectively. Caught with a roach or caught with a kilo, we're calling the cops can still be the very next line of the school drug policy without any detriment to zero tolerance.

The problem is these people evidently aren't smart enough to write a decent zero tolerance policy nor are they smart enough to be allowed to use their judgement on a case-by-case basis which is why they went to zero tolerance in the first place.

Quote
and it's sure as hell going to give the victim the wrong idea as they're growing up.
I dunno. If the idea they take from it is that the system is bullshit and not rigged in your favor, so you'd better learn how to game it to your advantage, they probably learned something valuable. [/cynical old bastard mode]

Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Paper gun gets 5th grader reprimanded...
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2013, 09:57:01 pm »
Quote
I dunno. If the idea they take from it is that the system is bullshit and not rigged in your favor, so you'd better learn how to game it to your advantage, they probably learned something valuable. [/cynical old bastard mode]

Which is a deadly cycle of teaching youths how to game the system and accept corruptness so that when they become adults, they inspire this "value" in others.
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