Prostitution

[DogmasDemise]

I don't get it. America is supposed to be the "land of the free", socially, economically whatever.

According to the GOP's statements:

We believe in the power and opportunity of America’s free-market economy. We believe in the importance of sensible business regulations that promote confidence in our economy among consumers, entrepreneurs and businesses alike. We oppose interventionist policies that put the federal government in control of industry and allow it to pick winners and losers in the marketplace.

The Democrats claim to be "socially liberal".

Prostitution is both a social and an economic issue and yet nobody in the American mainstream has ever talked about legalizing it or at least decriminalizing it. It's illegal pretty much everywhere except Nevada and there it is heavily regulated to absurd levels.

If you are pro-free-market to any extent how the heck does it make sense to arbitrarily ban an entire profession just because you don't agree with it? How the heck is it a "free market" if I can't even decide how to use certain parts of my body to make money? (Not that I do, it's just hypothetical here.)

Because of organized crime? It's the ban on it that linked it to organized crime in the first place as it happens any time you ban a commodity you don't like (alcohol, drugs etc.). STDs? America doesn't even have public healthcare, I'm not even going to bother with the statistics, I'm just going to say who cares (even if you want to mention Obama Care, that's a recent thing) and it's not like promiscuous young people aren't going to do it for free anyway. There are plenty of other reckless lifestyle choices that the government doesn't ban (and shouldn't ban).

Ah, silly me, it's because of Christian morality isn't it? Then again, Sweden is becoming a pretty atheistic country and doesn't allow it (*cough* sex-negative radical feminists *cough*). Likewise, it was Romanian communists (i.e. definitely not Christian) who banned it in Romania when they came to power (and abortion too), so clearly it's not exclusive to Christianity. I think it's exclusive to bullshit authoritarian mentality.

America, Europe, I don't care. The "free world" (which I agree, it is free... for the most part anyway) needs to start living up to that and legalize it. In fact any consenting private sexual act between adults (18+) should be included among human rights.

[kefkaownsall]

You lost me at rad fem.

[DogmasDemise]

So how would you describe a particular group of feminists who think that allowing prostitution is misogynistic (somehow)?

Personally I find that deeply sexist. There's male prostitution and there's homosexual prostitution. Please tell me how two guys having sex and one paying the other infringes on the equality between men and women?

[Vypernight]

Legalize it but regulate it like the health and food industry.  As long as it's all consensual, I don't see a problem with it.

Here, I've seen police officers jump prostitutes 4-on-1 (and not in a good way), pin them to the pavement, cuff them, and genrally act like they're dealing with terrorists, guns drawn and everything.  Yet, when we called because some drunken morons were firing their guns off in front of our apartment, into a small courtyard between two buildings, they wouldn't even investigate.  When we called recently because middle school children were running back and forth across a 4-lane road, nearly getting themselves killed and almost causing wrecks, they didn't budge.

But one or two prostitutes, and they call SWAT in.  Can anyone explain this bullshit to me?

[kefkaownsall]

I dont think it's rad fems here and in japan its usually the right

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

So how would you describe a particular group of feminists who think that allowing prostitution is misogynistic (somehow)?

I personally hate the phrase "radical feminist" being thrown around as a pejorative. Usually it's done by social conservatives (well that and the term "Feminazi"). Yes many feminists are against prostitution and pornography but there are many sex-positive feminists too.

For the record I support legalizing adult prostitution in the U.S. for reasons I'll get into when I have more time.

[DogmasDemise]

So how would you describe a particular group of feminists who think that allowing prostitution is misogynistic (somehow)?

I personally hate the phrase "radical feminist" being thrown around as a pejorative. Usually it's done by social conservatives (well that and the term "Feminazi"). Yes many feminists are against prostitution and pornography but there are many sex-positive feminists too.

Yeah, I agree, hence the word "radical".

I dont think it's rad fems here and in japan its usually the right

Well I was referring to Sweden. Different countries seem to have different reasons for keeping it illegal.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

So how would you describe a particular group of feminists who think that allowing prostitution is misogynistic (somehow)?

I personally hate the phrase "radical feminist" being thrown around as a pejorative. Usually it's done by social conservatives (well that and the term "Feminazi"). Yes many feminists are against prostitution and pornography but there are many sex-positive feminists too.

Yeah, I agree, hence the word "radical".

Yes but "radical" can denote positive things as well, hence my disagreement.

[Distind]

Legalize it but regulate it like the health and food industry.  As long as it's all consensual, I don't see a problem with it.

Because it's insulting to basic human dignity and pushes the idea of monetization into the basics of human interaction? I'll stand by those as wonderful reasons. Toss on the exploitation of the desperate and the kind of mindset involved in exchanging goods for human affection and I fail to see much worth while in the lot of it.

But one or two prostitutes, and they call SWAT in.  Can anyone explain this bullshit to me?

If you could get video of this you may be able to push... something, probably relating to faulty police methodologies, but hyperbole isn't going to help the cause any.

Edit:
And per Nevada's regulations. It's real simple, because it'd take about ten minutes to turn Laissez-faire prostitution into a slave trade. Ensuring the safety of the customer and the prostitute takes a rather massive amount of interference from an outside party, otherwise the only difference between how it's often handled now an how it'd be handled legally is there would be no reason to look into the abuses in the first place. What Nevada has is the closest to acceptable I've seen proposed, it largely eliminates my later points against the practice. I'm not fond of it, but compared to the rest of it I'll say it's considerably better.

[Vypernight]

Legalize it but regulate it like the health and food industry.  As long as it's all consensual, I don't see a problem with it.

Because it's insulting to basic human dignity and pushes the idea of monetization into the basics of human interaction? I'll stand by those as wonderful reasons. Toss on the exploitation of the desperate and the kind of mindset involved in exchanging goods for human affection and I fail to see much worth while in the lot of it.

But one or two prostitutes, and they call SWAT in.  Can anyone explain this bullshit to me?

If you could get video of this you may be able to push... something, probably relating to faulty police methodologies, but hyperbole isn't going to help the cause any.

I wish I could've taped it.  I'm not an anti-police person, but I'm just shocked at the way they seem to prioritize crime here.  The SWAT comment BTW was an exageration, but does seem they treat prostitution as more dangerous than shootings or kids nearly getting run over. 

As for the insult to human dignity, etc., maybe.  I wouldn't want anything to do with it, and my wife, who works with phone/internet sex companies wouldn't either.  But others prefer it, and I don't see a problem with others as long as they can make it safe for everyone involved. 

[Jack Mann]

Distind makes some very good points, though I think in theory there's nothing wrong with prostitution if everyone is consenting.

In practice, as Distind said, a lot of women are pushed into it.  It's one of the leading causes of human trafficking.

Yes, legalizing it might make it easier to regulate.  But to properly protect the workers, you're going to have to have some pretty intrusive regulation, similar to what they have in Vegas.  This will likely make it more expensive.  You'll still end up with the virtual slaves you have in current prostitution, since there will still be people who want cheap hookers and don't care what the consequences are for her.

I'm not saying that it's an insolveable problem.  But it's a complicated one.

[kefkaownsall]

L:ike in Netherlands they are constantly closing down brothels.  It's not always rad fems.  Maybe Swedish cops are not ready

[Askold]

Legalized and controlled prostitution would cause some more hassle for the people in that industry but I think it would be better for them as well. Personally I would support some sort of "bordello system" where all (or at least all legal) prostitution would be happening in controlled locations. Again it would mean some extra expenses for the industry but:

a) The customers would know which places are "legal" and which are not. (legal would in this case also mean less chances of "waking up on the street without clothes or wallet" and "less likely to get an std" not to mention "prostitutes are in it willingly and not sex slaves")

b) It would be easier to regulate by the police. (also it would be easier to check that everyone is using protection)

c) It would be safer for the prostitutes than going into the customers home.

d) As I mentioned in a) it is easier to crack down on sex trafficking since if your bordello is a known location to the police and they can make an checkup without a warning the owners would not take the chances of using victims of human trafficking.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

Anyway, even if one has moral objections to adult prostitution--and I won't say that the case cannot be made--one can still support its legalization. The dangers of pushing prostitution underground could have the unfortunate result of higher rates of STDs and HIV. At legal Nevada brothels, where Johns must use protection and the workers receive weekly tests for diseases, sex workers have lower rates of STDs than L.A. porn stars whose industry has lax regulations. (I would also argue that porn stars should be ruled by the same standards because the difference between hardcore pornography and prostitution is negligible.) Illegal prostitutes also must deal with sadistic and controlling pimps, who can take whatever amount of pay they want from their workers. In a legal business it would theoretically be held to a higher standard and sex workers could perhaps unionize and fight for labor rights. Another danger is when pimps and/or Johns are physically abusive to sex workers. Because their trade is illegal it is difficult for them to turn to law enforcement, so pimps and Johns may feel they can beat or rape such women with impunity. Prostitutes at least appear to be a more likely target for serial murderers, who go after people they believe society will not miss. Gary Ridgway, a.k.a. "The Green River Killer", murdered at least 48 women, all either prostitutes or runaways. Robert Hansen raped and murdered 17-21 women, mainly prostitutes. Joel Rifkin murdered 17. This is a trend that has been noticed by criminologists. Sex workers in a legal brothel are afforded security and health benefits that those practicing the trade illegally go without. I also believe that an adult has the right to do as they wish with their body. If someone has a particular skill, including sex, they should be able to sell that as they so choose.

[DogmasDemise]

Legalize it but regulate it like the health and food industry.  As long as it's all consensual, I don't see a problem with it.

Because it's insulting to basic human dignity

Let's see, we allow violent video games, movies and books all the time that could be described as an "insult to basic human dignity". There's also the porn industry, strip clubs all over America and the EU.

This all seems very selective. I'd rather not have the government (any government) involved in policing human dignity. Regulation is one thing, banning is a step too far.

and pushes the idea of monetization into the basics of human interaction?

It's not like that didn't happen already. Forget prostitution, there are plenty of professions that involve human interaction and those people are certainly expected to act nice whether they want to or not. (Not doing so could mean being fired or simply not being successful if they're self-employed.)

I'll stand by those as wonderful reasons. Toss on the exploitation of the desperate and the kind of mindset involved in exchanging goods for human affection and I fail to see much worth while in the lot of it.

I'm not convinced there's any inherent exploitation in this, well not any more than other professions in an open market involves. And in some cases I question who is actually being "exploited", the prostitute or the client.

If you mean forced prostitution, that's a result of the black market. If you want to end forced prostitution, it might help if you treat it as serious as murder. Lock them up and throw away the key. I see too many stories of traffickers getting off too easily. (And of course provide a legal alternative that's viable enough for most johns not to pursue underground prostitution. For example if you say, okay I'm going to legalize it but only in this small part of the country and I'm only going to give out a limited number of licenses... well most people will still use the black market since it's easier than spending hundreds of dollars on travel expenses)


Just to be clear, I do think there should be regulations in this, the way it's going in Nevada seems overdone. More specifically, there are entire areas of Nevada where it's not even allowed. Counties with over 400k population aren't allowed and some have 100k $ license fees WTF? Also it seems to be just organized prostitution, no room for independent "non-pimped" escorts at all. I think allowing independent decentralized prostitution is important too, a lot of the "exploitation" is diminished when there are no pimps.