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Community => Entertainment and Television => Topic started by: Lana Reverse on July 20, 2018, 10:24:01 pm

Title: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 20, 2018, 10:24:01 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44906019 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44906019)

Well, it looks like Roseanne Barr has company.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 21, 2018, 02:04:04 am
Hahaha, of course you see this the same way as Roseanne. Nevermind that this is the result of fucking Mike Cernovich.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: niam2023 on July 21, 2018, 03:52:51 am
Hopefully the studio sees reason and that this is the machination of a Nazi and rehires the man.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: dpareja on July 21, 2018, 04:40:07 am
Hopefully the studio sees reason and that this is the machination of a Nazi and rehires the man.

But if we offend the right-wingers, they'll... they'll... they'll call us LIBERALS!!!!!11!!1!

Fucking politically correct snowflakes like Cernovich don't deserve to have anyone listen to anything they say.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: niam2023 on July 21, 2018, 04:48:01 am
I hope Lana learns from this that we're not gonna be celebrating this.

I really hope that he gets rehired and the right wing gets offended we're "not keeping the same standurrd".

Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 21, 2018, 10:10:25 am
Hahaha, of course you see this the same way as Roseanne. Nevermind that this is the result of fucking Mike Cernovich.

How is this different? ELI5.

I hope Lana learns from this that we're not gonna be celebrating this.

I really hope that he gets rehired and the right wing gets offended we're "not keeping the same standurrd".



I'm not asking you to celebrate this. You'll see my reasons for posting this in due time.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Katsuro on July 21, 2018, 11:48:02 am
Quote
The now-deleted posts first came to light when conservative news website the Daily Caller unearthed them.

A number of conservative pundits then shared the tweets and called for Mr Gunn to be dropped by Disney.

Wait...I thought conservatives and right-wingers were supposed to be for free speech and are always complaining that liberals are too-easily-offended snowflakes who need safe-spaces?  It's almost like they're massive fucking hypocrites and full of shit or something? This is my shocked face.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 21, 2018, 12:01:54 pm
Quote
The now-deleted posts first came to light when conservative news website the Daily Caller unearthed them.

A number of conservative pundits then shared the tweets and called for Mr Gunn to be dropped by Disney.

Wait...I thought conservatives and right-wingers were supposed to be for free speech and are always complaining that liberals are too-easily-offended snowflakes who need safe-spaces?  It's almost like they're massive fucking hypocrites and full of shit or something? This is my shocked face.

I'm not sure it's hypocrisy so much as it is forcing those they consider "the enemy" to play by their own rules. It's rule 4 in Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 21, 2018, 12:07:59 pm
It's another bout of whatabautism after other people lost their jobs for saying bad stuff online or actually physically committing sexual assault and so on.

It does reveal the difference between the two USAs though. Anyone who is liberal will be shunned and punished for saying bad stuff or harassing people while the conservatives defend their own when the president or someone brags with sexual assault. ...If this whatabautism as well? Probably but the point must be made. Gunn said some horrible stuff as a joke and now he is a persona non-grata for Disney because they fear that their fans will abandon them. Cernovich was the one who dug out these tweets and he has history of making rape jokes and defending rapists (he had a tweet where he told people to go and try to rape women without using force and that when they realize that it can't be done they must accept that "date rape" does not exist because it is impossible to commit a rape without force... Which in my opinion is a lot worse than making horrible jokes.) and clearly does not think that the comments by Gunn are bad. He just thinks that he can prove "lib-cuck" hypocrisy by pointing out that Gunn has said bad stuff as well.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 21, 2018, 12:34:28 pm
It's another bout of whatabautism after other people lost their jobs for saying bad stuff online or actually physically committing sexual assault and so on.

It does reveal the difference between the two USAs though. Anyone who is liberal will be shunned and punished for saying bad stuff or harassing people while the conservatives defend their own when the president or someone brags with sexual assault. ...If this whatabautism as well? Probably but the point must be made. Gunn said some horrible stuff as a joke and now he is a persona non-grata for Disney because they fear that their fans will abandon them. Cernovich was the one who dug out these tweets and he has history of making rape jokes and defending rapists (he had a tweet where he told people to go and try to rape women without using force and that when they realize that it can't be done they must accept that "date rape" does not exist because it is impossible to commit a rape without force... Which in my opinion is a lot worse than making horrible jokes.) and clearly does not think that the comments by Gunn are bad. He just thinks that he can prove "lib-cuck" hypocrisy by pointing out that Gunn has said bad stuff as well.

OK, I'd like some evidence that Cernovich said that and meant it.

But more important, I think it might be more about holding people to their own standards. After the Roseanne debacle, Gunn made this now-deleted tweet (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:E12rAhxJhdgJ:https://twitter.com/jamesgunn/status/1001544397463343104):

Quote
I wish some of these so-called defenders of liberty would start to understand what freedom of speech is AND isn’t. Roseanne is allowed to say whatever she wants. It doesn’t mean @ABCNetwork needs to continue funding her TV show if her words are considered abhorrent.

He basically preemptively justified his own firing with this tweet, especially since ABC is owned by Disney. And the fact that he deleted it seems to indicate that he knows it too.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 21, 2018, 01:09:15 pm
Like this?

(https://i.imgur.com/eEtQ5LV.jpg)

EDIT: https://old.reddit.com/r/greatawakening/comments/90na6v/michael_ian_black_twitter_this_storm_is_growing/?st=jjvjavck&sh=8597c4c1

Looks like the people who dug up Gunn's comments are looking for more ammo.

EDIT 2: And really, USA-liberals are using the same rules for themselves as they demand of others. Harvey Weinstein, a Democrat and a donator got nailed when people found out what he had done behind the scenes. Bill Cosby became reviled when people found out that he's a serial rapist and same happened to Kevin Spacey when his sexual harassment became known. Cosby was already retired but Spacey's career ended because of the revelations with former fans wondering if they should stop liking the films the two had been in. Democrat politicians had to drop out when their sins of the past became known.

Fact is that if you aren't in GOP your career is over when you do something like that. Meanwhile Republican party has politicians that brag about sexual assault. Pedophile candidates. Even a Nazi as a candidate. There's no hypocrisy on the left here.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: ironbite on July 21, 2018, 03:24:01 pm
I really hope that Disney rehires Gunn on Monday and then claims an overzealous executive was the one to pull the trigger.  Because when you still have JOHNNY FUCKING DEPP on your payroll, you can't really claim the moral high ground here.

Ironbite-especially as his star power isn't as high as it used to be and yet he's still in Disney.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 21, 2018, 03:45:30 pm
Stop trying to change the subject, Askold. We're not talking about sexual misconduct, we're talking about outrage mobs.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 21, 2018, 03:56:42 pm
How is this changing subject? Rapists and abusers were the ones the metoo campaign was targeting. Now Alt-Right is trying to drum up similar outrage against the people they hate by digging through their old messages.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 21, 2018, 07:10:36 pm
How is this changing subject? Rapists and abusers were the ones the metoo campaign was targeting. Now Alt-Right is trying to drum up similar outrage against the people they hate by digging through their old messages.

This has nothing to do with #MeToo. This is about people getting fired for things they said on twitter.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 22, 2018, 01:53:28 am
Hahaha, of course you see this the same way as Roseanne. Nevermind that this is the result of fucking Mike Cernovich.

How is this different? ELI5.

James Gunn posted these tweets a decade ago, had them dragged out six years ago by left wingers where he apologized and explained what they were. He hasn't acted in such a manner as far as anyone's aware in a fucking DECADE. And even if we only count since the Tweets were dragged out the first time, it'd still be six years.

Roseanne was spouting racist shit THIS YEAR. She is still a racist piece of shit TODAY.

And that's not getting into the hypocrisy and motivations of fucking Mike Cernovich and how Disney firing Gunn was bending to the whim of a FUCKING NEO-NAZI.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 22, 2018, 02:48:16 am
How can you fail to see the connection?

You complained that "the other side" is being hypocritical and "not playing by the same rules they set for others" and I pointed out that yes, the "other side" does actually play by the same rules rather than pulling their punches when some of their "own side" do shitty stuff.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: davedan on July 22, 2018, 02:56:10 am
What did James Gunn say in the old tweets anyway?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 22, 2018, 03:07:10 am
He made jokes about rape and pedophilia (including one that was something along the lines of "click here for underage porn" that was a Rick Roll). They were tasteless and disgusting (albeit, in character for his work at the time from what I understand), but they were also something that was addressed six years ago.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: davedan on July 22, 2018, 03:16:22 am
Ok so not racism.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 22, 2018, 08:24:57 am
Gunn's jokes were in the style of: You know what's the best part about being raped? Once you're done being raped you realize that not being raped is really great!

Bad taste, offensive jokes on the style of Aristocrats but nothing that would make him appear to approve of pedophilia like Cernovich claims.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-cernovich-james-gunn-fired_us_5b5265cce4b0fd5c73c570ac More about Cernovich and his tactics.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 22, 2018, 11:13:17 am
Hahaha, of course you see this the same way as Roseanne. Nevermind that this is the result of fucking Mike Cernovich.

How is this different? ELI5.

James Gunn posted these tweets a decade ago, had them dragged out six years ago by left wingers where he apologized and explained what they were. He hasn't acted in such a manner as far as anyone's aware in a fucking DECADE. And even if we only count since the Tweets were dragged out the first time, it'd still be six years.

Roseanne was spouting racist shit THIS YEAR. She is still a racist piece of shit TODAY.

And that's not getting into the hypocrisy and motivations of fucking Mike Cernovich and how Disney firing Gunn was bending to the whim of a FUCKING NEO-NAZI.

On the other hand, Roseanne only made one such tweet. Gunn made many.

No offense, but you think being skeptical of the idea of white privilege is enough to make somebody alt-right. I don't know much about Cernovich, aside from the fact that he works for InfoWars, but

How can you fail to see the connection?

You complained that "the other side" is being hypocritical and "not playing by the same rules they set for others" and I pointed out that yes, the "other side" does actually play by the same rules rather than pulling their punches when some of their "own side" do shitty stuff.

I'm talking about in terms of online outrage, not sexual misconduct. Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmELazDBYCc

There are a few stances Mr. Pool takes in this video that I disagree with (such as him claiming that James Gunn is the only one to blame for his firing, and his claims about some of Patton Oswalt's jokes), but for the most part, I think he's right on the money. Is Mike Cernovich acting in bad faith? Is he just doing this for political reasons? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. But this is no different from the many incidents where the hard-left outrage machine dug up old Internet posts made by a public figure and used them to ruin his or her life. If you condemn this -- which you have every right to -- then IMHO it would be hypocritical not to condemn similar things being done by the hard-left.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 22, 2018, 03:08:16 pm
On the other hand, Roseanne only made one such tweet. Gunn made many.

No offense, but you think being skeptical of the idea of white privilege is enough to make somebody alt-right. I don't know much about Cernovich, aside from the fact that he works for InfoWars, but

The fact that Cernovich works for Infowars should be a red flag right there. He's a fucking Neo-NAZI. And you want proof that he was acting in bad faith? Here are some WORD FOR WORD QUOTES:

"The only rape culture is Muslim rape culture. #TheTriggering" (http://archive.is/5hiG8)

"I bet you've never met someone who was man enough to give you what you actually desire." She says yes = rape fantasy on 1st date. (http://archive.is/TmAI2#selection-713.0-713.130)

This is how to screen for girls with rape fantasies/really rough sex.  (http://archive.is/aEC2Q)

Since prison rape is no big deal (after all, criminals deserved to be raped), why don't we have co-ed prisons? (http://archive.is/dtS0z)

Do a Google image search for "lions mating." That's basically rape and it's also the natural form of sex. (http://archive.is/CeNFX)

Now, you're probably thinking that some of these Tweets are old, but that misses the point. Gunn dealt with this shit when it was drudged up the first time in 2012 and has not done anything along these lines since. As you can see, Cernovich has been saying this kind of shit, joking or otherwise, as recently as 2016. Not to mention things like, oh, I don't know, trying to end Chuck Schumer's career by falsely accusing him of sexual harassment in December of 2017. (https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/12/14/forged-documents-schumer-spark-investigation/)

But, sure, please tell me more about how you can't tell that someone like Mike Cernovich isn't acting in good faith. Fuck off.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 22, 2018, 03:32:14 pm
On the other hand, Roseanne only made one such tweet. Gunn made many.

No offense, but you think being skeptical of the idea of white privilege is enough to make somebody alt-right. I don't know much about Cernovich, aside from the fact that he works for InfoWars, but

The fact that Cernovich works for Infowars should be a red flag right there. He's a fucking Neo-NAZI. And you want proof that he was acting in bad faith? Here are some WORD FOR WORD QUOTES:

"The only rape culture is Muslim rape culture. #TheTriggering" (http://archive.is/5hiG8)

"I bet you've never met someone who was man enough to give you what you actually desire." She says yes = rape fantasy on 1st date. (http://archive.is/TmAI2#selection-713.0-713.130)

This is how to screen for girls with rape fantasies/really rough sex.  (http://archive.is/aEC2Q)

Since prison rape is no big deal (after all, criminals deserved to be raped), why don't we have co-ed prisons? (http://archive.is/dtS0z)

Do a Google image search for "lions mating." That's basically rape and it's also the natural form of sex. (http://archive.is/CeNFX)

Now, you're probably thinking that some of these Tweets are old, but that misses the point. Gunn dealt with this shit when it was drudged up the first time in 2012 and has since not done anything along these lines since. As you can see, Cernovich has been saying this kind of shit, joking or otherwise, as recently as 2016. Not to mention things like, oh, I don't know, trying to end Chuck Schumer's career by falsely accusing him of sexual harassment in December of 2017. (https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/12/14/forged-documents-schumer-spark-investigation/)

But, sure, please tell me more about how you can't tell that someone like Mike Cernovich isn't acting in good faith. Fuck off.

Chill out.

And no, "he works for InfoWars" isn't enough to convince me he's a Neo-Nazi. I need more than that.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: ironbite on July 22, 2018, 04:16:16 pm
God you're a dumb nazi fucker.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 22, 2018, 04:52:06 pm
I notice with some amusement that Lana us using a classic troll tactic here, she's seamlessly morphed from someone who's presented something that others find contentious to the final arbiter of right and wrong. The phrase "you're going to need more to convince me" keeps coming up as if truth needs her stamp of approval or it just won't fly.

Truth =/= What Convinces Lana. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Skybison on July 22, 2018, 04:58:35 pm
Well speaking for myself I am against people on the left digging up something someone said a decade ago when they have already apologized and it clearly no longer reflects them.  People do change over time after all.  I can't think of any recent examples of the left getting somebody fired over something like this of the top of my head though.

Also I looked Cernovich up and he was one of the advocates of the Pizzagate conspiracy theory.  So even if he isn't a nazi exactly he's a liar who nearly got people killed.  Oh and he clearly calls himself alt-right
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNfZcOrWAAEU0no.jpg)

So why are you not convinced they guy who calls himself alt-right and talks about white genocide is an alt-right nazi?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 22, 2018, 04:59:04 pm
I notice with some amusement that Lana us using a classic troll tactic here, she's seamlessly morphed from someone who's presented something that others find contentious to the final arbiter of right and wrong. The phrase "you're going to need more to convince me" keeps coming up as if truth needs her stamp of approval or it just won't fly.

Truth =/= What Convinces Lana. Just sayin'.

Which is an eerily familiar trait from a certain other alt-right water carrier we've had in the past.....
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Murdin on July 22, 2018, 05:13:45 pm
Chill out.

Remember how much effort UP used to invest into his attempts to push the Overton window to the right under the guise of "centrist" or "apolitical" causes? Yeah, I almost miss those times. Almost.

Barr was already known for tweeting a lot of crazy shit before she was hired for the reboot, what got her fired was just a relapse. Cernovich is not just "skeptical" of leftist pet causes, he's a conspiracy theorist who believes in white genocide and insisting on the "neo-Nazi" part is nothing more than a giant red herring. Online outrage about sexual misconduct is absolutely relevant to the tangent about "leftist hypocrisy". No actual example is provided for the whataboutism about the "hard-left outrage machine", which prevents anyone from actually addressing it even if they wanted to. Also, the underlying assumption that this behavior is reserved to "political extremes"? Typical centrist nonsense, their pwecious golden mean is far from being exempt from this kind of scum.

It's like they stopped even trying to pretend that they have a point.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 22, 2018, 06:10:04 pm
I notice with some amusement that Lana us using a classic troll tactic here, she's seamlessly morphed from someone who's presented something that others find contentious to the final arbiter of right and wrong. The phrase "you're going to need more to convince me" keeps coming up as if truth needs her stamp of approval or it just won't fly.

Truth =/= What Convinces Lana. Just sayin'.

I was asking for more evidence than being affiliated with conspiracy theorists.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNfZcOrWAAEU0no.jpg)

Like this. See, Skybison gets it.

So why are you not convinced they guy who calls himself alt-right and talks about white genocide is an alt-right nazi?

Because I didn't know. I do now. Now I believe he's alt-right.

Chill out.

Remember how much effort UP used to invest into his attempts to push the Overton window to the right under the guise of "centrist" or "apolitical" causes? Yeah, I almost miss those times. Almost.

Barr was already known for tweeting a lot of crazy shit before she was hired for the reboot, what got her fired was just a relapse. Cernovich is not just "skeptical" of leftist pet causes, he's a conspiracy theorist who believes in white genocide and insisting on the "neo-Nazi" part is nothing more than a giant red herring. Online outrage about sexual misconduct is absolutely relevant to the tangent about "leftist hypocrisy". No actual example is provided for the whataboutism about the "hard-left outrage machine", which prevents anyone from actually addressing it even if they wanted to. Also, the underlying assumption that this behavior is reserved to "political extremes"? Typical centrist nonsense, their pwecious golden mean is far from being exempt from this kind of scum.

It's like they stopped even trying to pretend that they have a point.

You want examples? Justine Sacco (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html). Michael Rectenwald (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/03/campus-pc-culture-is-so-rampant-that-nyu-is-paying-to-silence-me/?utm_term=.9a461afc8512). Bret Weinstein (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-turns-on-its-own.html). All of these people had their lives negatively impacted by hard left outrage mobs.

And if you think centrists are not immune to this behavior, show me. I'd be happy to see examples.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: davedan on July 22, 2018, 07:15:08 pm
Mike Cernovich also tried to get Sam Seder fired by MSNBC as a contributor by taking a tweet he made about Roman Polanski out of context. Even the briefest look into Cernovich would convince you the author of the gorilla mindset was not someone acting honestly.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Murdin on July 22, 2018, 09:40:53 pm
Justine Sacco: yep, that's a pretty definite case of social media-fueled bandwagoning horrorshow that's at least somewhat comparable to Gunn's situation. Still, I'm not sure how "hard left" that particular outrage mob really was. If a similarly offensive tweet about, say, veterans had gone viral, whould the resulting mob have qualified as "hard right" just for spiraling out of control?

Michael Rectenwald: literally wrote an article to gloat about the results of his so-called "experiment", wherein he would use his pulpit as a professor along with a thin cover of anonymity to argue in bad faith  and get the reaction he wanted from his students... aka plain dumb trolling. This entire story is manufactured outrage on every level, from the students' efforts to "silence" his sockpuppet, to his feigned indignation over what little consequences he faced for his actions, to the inevitable right-wing bandwagon around a fresh case of "campus craziness". Rectenwald is now hanging out with the "Intellectual Dark Web", a group of stupid man's intelligent people usually paid through Patreon to rant against PC and identity politics while selling right-wing clichés disguised as revolutionary new ideas.

Brett Weinstein: holy hell, opinion piece gotta opine. In the real world, the leaked e-mail didn't exactly spark a spontaneous revolt among triggered SJW students. Instead, the situation took several months to escalate as related and unrelated incidents were added to the mix, while partisan and/or sensationalist media outlets kept fanning the flames. The resulting campaign (https://www.thestranger.com/features/2018/05/24/26472992/after-evergreen) of threats, harassment and fascist vs antifa protests affected students and faculty far beyond Weinstein himself, who milked the controversy for all he could before resigning from the university with a $500k settlement (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/evergreen-professor-at-center-of-protests-resigns-college-will-pay-500000/). He then joined the aforementioned "Intellectual Dark Web" as a Patreon-funded culture warrior.

As for centrist outrage machines, what about the Wall Street Journal's war on PewDiePie (http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/pewdiepie-backlash-is-a-massive-overreaction-2017-2) over a bunch of offensive jokes that also got him dropped by Disney? I have other examples in mind, but they're a bit more controversial and this one was too fitting to pass up anyway.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 23, 2018, 12:31:51 am
I notice with some amusement that Lana us using a classic troll tactic here, she's seamlessly morphed from someone who's presented something that others find contentious to the final arbiter of right and wrong. The phrase "you're going to need more to convince me" keeps coming up as if truth needs her stamp of approval or it just won't fly.

Truth =/= What Convinces Lana. Just sayin'.

Note how Lana started the thread being all judgemental and when people asked what is this about they gave a cryptic "you'll see" answer. Now they claim that they have no idea who Cernovich is and suddenly the amount of evidence needed to believe that he is a Neo-Nazi keeps going up up up.

Gunn making dead baby jokes = Horrible person who must be crucified.

Cernovich being a Nazi = I don't see it.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 23, 2018, 12:51:58 am
So you reckon that when Justine quipped that white people were unable to get AIDS people getting annoyed at her, well-that was dead unfair?

Your alt-right crush is showing!
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 23, 2018, 02:03:03 am
So you reckon that when Justine quipped that white people were unable to get AIDS people getting annoyed at her, well-that was dead unfair?

Your alt-right crush is showing!
Getting annoyed is perfectly fine. Destroying her entire life over it, not so much.

Honestly, people need to calm their tits and get the fuck over themselves. When you think it's perfectly justified to get someone fired just because you're offended by a fucking joke, you've probably got just a wee bit of an inflated ego.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 23, 2018, 07:17:52 am
Fact is that the whole "online outrage" complaint is hypocritical.

What does it even mean? Massive online outrage caused Star Wars actor to delete her online presence when people were threatening to rape and murder her because they didn't like the character she played onscreen. Massive online outrage caused companies to fire people who were rapists. Massive online outrage lead to Kathy Sierra canceling her Etech appearance and lead to her ending her career completely because a Neo-Nazi doxxed her and spread malicious rumours leading into massive harassment and death threats.

Which type of "online outrage" are we talking here anyway if the examples I previously posted don't count. Heck, putting non-white and non-straight characters in a video game will still cause online outrage and harassment, maybe we should be talking about that too...
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 23, 2018, 10:11:35 am
Fuck it.  To hell with the whinging cunts, doxxing should be a felony, and online harassment should be punished the exact same as in-person harassment.  Classify it as a federal offense, since most of the time, this shit crosses state lines.  Hit them hard and never stop.  Either they realize that doing a stint in a steel cage isn't worth it for stroking their worthless egos, or they'll be put exactly where they belong.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 23, 2018, 10:21:02 am
I notice with some amusement that Lana us using a classic troll tactic here, she's seamlessly morphed from someone who's presented something that others find contentious to the final arbiter of right and wrong. The phrase "you're going to need more to convince me" keeps coming up as if truth needs her stamp of approval or it just won't fly.

Truth =/= What Convinces Lana. Just sayin'.

Note how Lana started the thread being all judgemental and when people asked what is this about they gave a cryptic "you'll see" answer. Now they claim that they have no idea who Cernovich is and suddenly the amount of evidence needed to believe that he is a Neo-Nazi keeps going up up up.

Gunn making dead baby jokes = Horrible person who must be crucified.

Cernovich being a Nazi = I don't see it.

Because I didn't know. I do now. Now I believe he's alt-right.

Honestly, how can I trust you to moderate if you miss stuff like this?

Fact is that the whole "online outrage" complaint is hypocritical.

What does it even mean? Massive online outrage caused Star Wars actor to delete her online presence when people were threatening to rape and murder her because they didn't like the character she played onscreen. Massive online outrage caused companies to fire people who were rapists. Massive online outrage lead to Kathy Sierra canceling her Etech appearance and lead to her ending her career completely because a Neo-Nazi doxxed her and spread malicious rumours leading into massive harassment and death threats.

Which type of "online outrage" are we talking here anyway if the examples I previously posted don't count. Heck, putting non-white and non-straight characters in a video game will still cause online outrage and harassment, maybe we should be talking about that too...

What about the type that drives people to suicide?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/civil-servant-commits-suicide-after-facebook-accusations-of-racism/ (https://www.timesofisrael.com/civil-servant-commits-suicide-after-facebook-accusations-of-racism/)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/august-ames-dead-brother-cyberbullying-cost-sisters-life-a8101816.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/august-ames-dead-brother-cyberbullying-cost-sisters-life-a8101816.html)
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 23, 2018, 11:11:05 am
Lana, you really need to just come out and make your point. Yeah, bullying people to commit suicide is bad, but did it take long for you to find a story where EEEEEEEVIL SJWs bullied someone?

Besides, my comment was more about your initial reaction. I find it hard to believe that you'd know who Cernovich is and still be surprised that he's a Nazi.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Murdin on July 23, 2018, 05:33:23 pm
So you reckon that when Justine quipped that white people were unable to get AIDS people getting annoyed at her, well-that was dead unfair?

Social media distorts normal human interactions into something unrecognizable. It gives the "opportunity" for millions of people to become sincerely, personally offended by the words or attitude of a complete stranger, while at the same time hampering their ability to conceptualize this stranger as an actual person.

Every person who participated in the Twitter outrage was, from their point of view, doing the equivalent of throwing a rock in the direction of some pest rummaging through their garbage bin.

On the other side of the aisle, the offender has essentially no choice but to experience it as a public stoning.


What about the type that drives people to suicide?

People who are trying to "win" a debate or discussion have little reason to back down from their own fallacious arguments if they can help it, so it's not exactly uncommon for them to serve additional helpings of whataboutism to their audience even after having been explicitly called out on it.

Literally starting them with the phrase "what about", however... *that* takes a special kind of person.

As for the argument itself, I'll say that the motives behind someone's suicide are rarely as simple and straightforward as they are made out to be, and that using those deaths for the sake of making a political point is... ethically questionable.

Kind of off-topic, but... what horrifies me the most about those two cases is how small-scale they actually were. A few thousand reactions is next to nothing on the scale of the Internet, and whatever media impact the original incidents may have had has been completely eclipsed by the resulting tragedies. This really helps put into perspective the multi-million-strong "memeization" campaigns that have long been taken for granted as part of "Internet culture".
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 23, 2018, 05:45:48 pm
Outrage on the internet is something, let's face facts, most of us do. Anybody here ever got into a heated discussion online or said something in anger? A lot of people here. I'd definitely count passive aggressive trolling along with openly angry posts. Either way it's not something you can stop.

What's a more interesting discussion is when is it ethical, is it ethical to ask people to hold back their anger if they feel something is in violation of their basic principles? If someone says something racist what's wrong with saying "you racist shithead?"

Where's the line that says "too far?" What about numbers? When a million people do a thing does that have the same impact as one person doing it? How much personal responsibility do people have for the actions of a group that sings the same song? Because "none," while it feels convenient it doesn't cut it. Yeah, I remember Gamergate too. Cernovich and co. weaponize public outrage like  they always have. (https://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/mike-cernovich-james-gunn-fired_us_5b5265cce4b0fd5c73c570ac)

And when should the law step in? Private companies clearly don't want to know if people are sending death and rape threats and similar threats against targets friends and family. They'll only act if the publicity gets too noxious or John Q. Law tells them to pull the fuck up. Which brings us full circle, one of the most effective ways to get private enterprise to act on public outrage mobs is via a public outrage mob. And here we are.

So you reckon that when Justine quipped that white people were unable to get AIDS people getting annoyed at her, well-that was dead unfair?

Your alt-right crush is showing!
Getting annoyed is perfectly fine. Destroying her entire life over it, not so much.

Honestly, people need to calm their tits and get the fuck over themselves. When you think it's perfectly justified to get someone fired just because you're offended by a fucking joke, you've probably got just a wee bit of an inflated ego.

Well, sure if the "you" in that sentence is "me," I'm not offended and can take the joke. But then I'm an Anglo-Celtic Aussie whitey, not a black South African who's been affected by AIDS or even an equally enraged white person who's been affected by AIDS. I've got the luxury of being able to hang back and say it's no biggie.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Art Vandelay on July 24, 2018, 04:36:23 am
Well, sure if the "you" in that sentence is "me," I'm not offended and can take the joke. But then I'm an Anglo-Celtic Aussie whitey, not a black South African who's been affected by AIDS or even an equally enraged white person who's been affected by AIDS. I've got the luxury of being able to hang back and say it's no biggie.
General you, not you personally. In any case, I can't really say I buy that. Mob justice is frowned upon even for actual criminals. Forming an e-mob for the purpose of ruining someone's career should be no different, especially over a joke. Personally, I hate people who spread woo. If I saw someone promoting Christianity, or Wicca, or crystal healing, or homoeopathy, or whatever else, would that justify me gathering a mob of like-minded individuals for the sake of harassing that person's boss into firing them? If not, why is that not okay when being sufficiently offended by joke is totally justifiable? Pomoting bullshit is objectively far more harmful than merely pissing someone off through the power of dark humour, after all.

Personally, if you (again, general you) find someone else's brand of humour offensive, then don't engage with them. Well, call them a dickhead if you really must, but don't try to fuck with their lives for the crime of not complying with your sensibilities. Just block them if it's that triggering. It's not hard. It's a standard feature on pretty much all social media for a reason. As I said, you're just another nobody on the internet, not the sole arbiter of what's acceptable and what isn't. Sit the fuck down and get the fuck over yourself.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 24, 2018, 06:55:20 am
Thing is Art, right or wrong it's not gonna happen that every time someone says something shitty people are gonna STFU about it. Yeah, mob online outrage can be a shitty thing but people from all across the political spectrun have witnessed that this shit works. It breaches the line from cyberspace to real life.

The Me Too movement and BLM took off for exactly the same reason shitty movements like Gamergate and butthurt fanboys of a million stripes did. The internet is one hell of an organising tool when you add outrage.

The pertinent question is when is it ethical to do this and what is ethical do once the ball gets rolling which, lets face facts, is fucking difficult to control, because people.

And yeah, I think someone like Pew Die Pie is just an annoying dork but if I had a friend who offed themselves in a suicide forest or a relative who'd survived Auchswitz it'd be hard to suppress the desire to yell a lot worse at his various accounts. I'm not so I don't.

But I find it hard to judge someone for whom his fuckery is a lot closer to the bone too harshly for doing just that.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 24, 2018, 07:22:27 am
I think it is also important to note the difference between sending messages online to ask a company to fire a guy and sending messages to that person and telling them to kill themselves or to threaten them with rape and/or murder.

Yesterday I saw a lot of guys upset that in the new She-Ra cartoon the main character isn't sexy enough. Because the great tragedy of today is that there aren't enough characters in childrens cartoons that middle aged men can use as wank material. But apart from the other people in the FB group getting disgusted by the few complainers no harm was done. Even if they complain to Netflix that the teen character should have bigger boobs this is not really an issue. It's if they start sending out threats and harassing people that they cross the line from "gross" to "criminal and dangerous."
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 24, 2018, 07:30:39 am
I don't have problem with that. There's a world of difference between "you're a dick" and "I'll cut your dick off!"

What's interesting to me is that the ones motivated to do the worst of online mobbery, the rape threats, the doxxers and the swatters aren't motivated by their claimed outrage but by a far deeper hatred of a class of people and what they represent which is why they front with "ethics" or Cernovich's deep, utterly sincere concerns.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 24, 2018, 09:15:31 am
 Interesting...

Before this thread is locked due to the flood of ...

https://www.reddit.com/r/rickandmorty/comments/91e93z/to_everyone_that_dan_harmon_offended/e2xkv5d?utm_source=reddit-android
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 24, 2018, 10:28:00 am
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand baby rape jokes.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 24, 2018, 12:19:39 pm
Hahaha, of course you see this the same way as Roseanne. Nevermind that this is the result of fucking Mike Cernovich.

How is this different? ELI5.

I hope Lana learns from this that we're not gonna be celebrating this.

I really hope that he gets rehired and the right wing gets offended we're "not keeping the same standurrd".



I'm not asking you to celebrate this. You'll see my reasons for posting this in due time.

Yeah!!! You’ll all see!
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Murdin on July 24, 2018, 01:06:21 pm
You have to have an even higher IQ to understand that Cartoon Network isn't Disney, and that the Adult Swim company might not be as worried about their reputation as "family-friendly". Galaxy brain macros come to mind here.

Gee, it's almost as if these people are actually terrible at 4D chess and only got so much success from surfing on already-popular ideas.

Fake, orchestrated displays of moral outrage has always been one of the right's primary weapons in the culture wars, along with the stigmatization of harmless traits and behaviors. For all their more up-to-date set of values and vocal opposition to "authoritarian SJWs", the alt-right and its associated currents are just as obsessed with conformity as any other social-conservative school of thought. In this mindset, social infractions are based on ingroup-outgroup distinctions rather than any kind of concern about harm, and any instance of public indignation has to be some kind of display of social dominance... a witch hunt, if you prefer.

Hence the bucketload of false equivalences brought here by our local water carrier. Hence also their utter lack of empathy for refugees and criminals, their interest in reclassifying any perceived threat as foreign in nature, and their warped interpretation of internal lefitst politics (intersectionality vs oppression olympics comes to mind), among other things.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 24, 2018, 03:51:46 pm
Before this thread is locked due to the flood of ...

Wait whut? I didn't type that sentence. I blame copy-pasting the link on my smartphone for it getting there, but it is still a fail that I didn't notice it.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: niam2023 on July 24, 2018, 04:11:36 pm
Yeah - there's a lot of conformity advocacy on the right in general - Jim's Blog has advocated for the death penalty or exile for those who refuse to conform.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 24, 2018, 05:13:41 pm
No surprises here, the same people bellyaching about the left somehow oppressing them with pronouns and calling out bigotry are the same people who vote for suppressing unions and idiots who'll say with a straight face that the civil war was all about "states rights."
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 24, 2018, 07:03:18 pm
go and try to rape women without using force and that when they realize that it can't be done they must accept that "date rape" does not exist because it is impossible to commit a rape without force.

OK, I'd like some evidence that Cernovich said that and meant it.

Stop playing Nazi-Apologist. I mean, seriously? He said it on Twitter. And if he "said it and meant it?" What the fuck dude?

Quote from: The Nazi-Apologist
But more important, I think it might be more about holding people to their own standards. After the Roseanne debacle, Gunn made this now-deleted tweet (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:E12rAhxJhdgJ:https://twitter.com/jamesgunn/status/1001544397463343104):

Quote
I wish some of these so-called defenders of liberty would start to understand what freedom of speech is AND isn’t. Roseanne is allowed to say whatever she wants. It doesn’t mean @ABCNetwork needs to continue funding her TV show if her words are considered abhorrent.

He basically preemptively justified his own firing with this tweet, especially since ABC is owned by Disney. And the fact that he deleted it seems to indicate that he knows it too.

One, major false equivalency. Tweet-mining a poorly made joke almost a decade old pales with the extensive body of racist work behind Roseanne. For the love of God, Roseanne was tweeting anti-semitic conspiracy theories at Don Trump Jr. before going into her racist tirade of Valerie Jarrett. Two, Disney is free to fire Gunn. Three, people are free to say "hey, Disney, Cernovich is a sentient bag of rotting chicken hides, and we do not believe that this campaign to hold Gunn's quote against him accurately depicts his body of work. Give him a second chance." Funny how all of that works.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 24, 2018, 08:03:20 pm
No surprises here, the same people bellyaching about the left somehow oppressing them with pronouns and calling out bigotry are the same people who vote for suppressing unions and idiots who'll say with a straight face that the civil war was all about "states rights."

Let's not generalize anti-SJWs like that. Though I'll admit that I may be guilty of lumping people together when they don't deserve it. If I do that, feel free to call me on it.

go and try to rape women without using force and that when they realize that it can't be done they must accept that "date rape" does not exist because it is impossible to commit a rape without force.

OK, I'd like some evidence that Cernovich said that and meant it.

Stop playing Nazi-Apologist. I mean, seriously? He said it on Twitter. And if he "said it and meant it?" What the fuck dude?

Quote from: The Nazi-Apologist
But more important, I think it might be more about holding people to their own standards. After the Roseanne debacle, Gunn made this now-deleted tweet (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:E12rAhxJhdgJ:https://twitter.com/jamesgunn/status/1001544397463343104):

Quote
I wish some of these so-called defenders of liberty would start to understand what freedom of speech is AND isn’t. Roseanne is allowed to say whatever she wants. It doesn’t mean @ABCNetwork needs to continue funding her TV show if her words are considered abhorrent.

He basically preemptively justified his own firing with this tweet, especially since ABC is owned by Disney. And the fact that he deleted it seems to indicate that he knows it too.

One, major false equivalency. Tweet-mining a poorly made joke almost a decade old pales with the extensive body of racist work behind Roseanne. For the love of God, Roseanne was tweeting anti-semitic conspiracy theories at Don Trump Jr. before going into her racist tirade of Valerie Jarrett. Two, Disney is free to fire Gunn. Three, people are free to say "hey, Disney, Cernovich is a sentient bag of rotting chicken hides, and we do not believe that this campaign to hold Gunn's quote against him accurately depicts his body of work. Give him a second chance." Funny how all of that works.

Accusing somebody of being a Nazi apologist? I'm pretty sure that constitutes "being a dick".
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 24, 2018, 11:12:16 pm
Lana, that is a completely fair characterisation of anti SJWs on the web. They have two speeds, "muh freeze peach" and "shut it down." After Gamergate, /pol, butthurt Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Dr Who et al fans freaking out on womens in their franchises and bloody Incels I struggle to be fair with the shitheels. I'll be fair to the extent I won't use their worst unfair tactics back at them and only because I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 24, 2018, 11:59:51 pm
Lana, that is a completely fair characterisation of anti SJWs on the web. They have two speeds, "muh freeze peach" and "shut it down." After Gamergate, /pol, butthurt Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Dr Who et al fans freaking out on womens in their franchises and bloody Incels I struggle to be fair with the shitheels. I'll be fair to the extent I won't use their worst unfair tactics back at them and only because I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

(https://i.imgur.com/00XGXjt.gif)

Do you really think that everybody whose only shared characteristic is being against something can be lumped together like members of a gang? Have you already forgotten Moffat himself debunking the media narrative about the Female Doctor backlash? Are you so deluded that you think the same people who accepted Leia Organa, Mara Jade, Shaak Ti, Ahsoka Tano, Aayla Secura, and Barriss Offee suddenly turned into sexist pigs for no apparent reason? How likely is it that the people who had no problems with a female Ghostbuster in the Wii game hated the reboot just because they hated women?

Tol, I know you're not stupid, but even intelligent people can sound completely preposterous.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 12:42:53 am
It's not on Moffat to debunk. I'm on a classic Dr Who fanpage on Facebook and the moderators had to clean house to get rid of whiny dorks howling about the Doctor being a giiiiiiirrrlllll. Who yeah, howled about being censored after days howling "Shut it Down." Moffat has fuck all to do with it and should know better in any case, having been on the business end of lunatic fan outrage more than once.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 25, 2018, 07:13:23 am
go and try to rape women without using force and that when they realize that it can't be done they must accept that "date rape" does not exist because it is impossible to commit a rape without force.

OK, I'd like some evidence that Cernovich said that and meant it.

Stop playing Nazi-Apologist. I mean, seriously? He said it on Twitter. And if he "said it and meant it?" What the fuck dude?

Accusing somebody of being a Nazi apologist? I'm pretty sure that constitutes "being a dick".

1. “If he said it and meant it” was a clear attempt to move the goal post by having us argue a subjective intent rather than the intentional, overt statements he put out into the world. I would suggest you read Sartre’s Being and Nothingness, if only because it will keep you off line for a week.
2. “If he said it and meant it.” Is evidence enough to support the conclusion that you’re a Nazi-apologist.
3. It would be absurd to interpret the DbaD rule to mean we cannot level fair criticisms unless we couch our language in politeness to protect the Nazi’s fee-fees.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 25, 2018, 09:32:51 am
Shit, I barely couch my language to protect my brother's feefees, and I like my brother.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 25, 2018, 10:07:30 am
It's not on Moffat to debunk. I'm on a classic Dr Who fanpage on Facebook and the moderators had to clean house to get rid of whiny dorks howling about the Doctor being a giiiiiiirrrlllll. Who yeah, howled about being censored after days howling "Shut it Down." Moffat has fuck all to do with it and should know better in any case, having been on the business end of lunatic fan outrage more than once.

I don't doubt that there was some backlash, but Moffat says that it was greatly exaggerated.

go and try to rape women without using force and that when they realize that it can't be done they must accept that "date rape" does not exist because it is impossible to commit a rape without force.

OK, I'd like some evidence that Cernovich said that and meant it.

Stop playing Nazi-Apologist. I mean, seriously? He said it on Twitter. And if he "said it and meant it?" What the fuck dude?

Accusing somebody of being a Nazi apologist? I'm pretty sure that constitutes "being a dick".

1. “If he said it and meant it” was a clear attempt to move the goal post by having us argue a subjective intent rather than the intentional, overt statements he put out into the world. I would suggest you read Sartre’s Being and Nothingness, if only because it will keep you off line for a week.
2. “If he said it and meant it.” Is evidence enough to support the conclusion that you’re a Nazi-apologist.
3. It would be absurd to interpret the DbaD rule to mean we cannot level fair criticisms unless we couch our language in politeness to protect the Nazi’s fee-fees.

I said it because of context. We were talking about a man getting fired for edgy jokes, so I wanted evidence that what Cernovich said was more than just edgy jokes.

And accusing fellow users of being Nazi apologists based entirely on one's own opinion constitutes a clear violation of the DBAD rule. You need to stop tossing around accusations like that.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Murdin on July 25, 2018, 11:33:51 am
"Nazi apologist" is a slur! So much for liberal tolerance!

I'm not sure when and how it happened, but at some point, "X is a slur" and its variants became more pervasive as a thought-terminating cliché (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9) than straight, ad-hominem accusations of X. Maybe that was always the case, and I was just being a bit too sympathetic towards anti-SJW types at the time?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 25, 2018, 12:01:16 pm
"Nazi apologist" is a slur! So much for liberal tolerance!

I'm not sure when and how it happened, but at some point, "X is a slur" and its variants became a more pervasive thought-terminating clché than straight, ad-hominem accusations of X. Maybe that was always the case, and I was just being a bit too sympathetic towards anti-SJW types at the time?

Since when? Maybe it's just me, but ad hominem accusations still seem far more pervasive than "X is a slur". Now granted, it doesn't seem like left-wing hardliners are the only ones guilty of it, just about everyone is. Honestly, I'm afraid the national discourse will eventually devolve into this:

"Cuck!"

"Alt-right!"

"Cuck!"

"Alt-right!"

Repeat ad nauseam. It'll be like the "rocket man" vs. "dotard" fight, only on a much larger scale and lasting for much longer.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 25, 2018, 12:10:31 pm
Lana, when these debates inevitably arise, why do you always happen to defend the poor, downtrodden Nazis?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Askold on July 25, 2018, 12:49:54 pm
At some point overwhelming amounts of evidence of Nazi-apologist behaviour make it more than just "personal opinion."
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 25, 2018, 02:59:08 pm
Lana, when these debates inevitably arise, why do you always happen to defend the poor, downtrodden Nazis?

The better question is why do you throw shade at me when we have these debates? And while we're at it, why do you think defending a group's civil liberties means defending the group itself? By that logic, the ACLU holds a lot of contradictory positions.

At some point overwhelming amounts of evidence of Nazi-apologist behaviour make it more than just "personal opinion."

Says the guy who thought an essay with "A Modest Proposal" in the title was being serious.

And why am I not surprised you're defending her? Once again, you show that you are a terrible moderator. That's not just my opinion either. I sent a PM to Sigmaleph complaining about your performance, and asking if there was something I was missing. She didn't even try to defend you, basically saying "yeah, he sucks, but I don't know anyone here right now who would do better." See for yourself:

I'm aware of the situation and don't have a good answer.

I don't know of anyone I could promote to a moderation position that would do better.

Before you go around insulting me, why don't you go look at yourself in the mirror?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 25, 2018, 03:42:44 pm
Oh LAWDY!!!!!
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Murdin on July 25, 2018, 03:50:22 pm
Made a small edit to my previous post for people with reading comprehension difficulties.

Incidentally, I do not think Queen's accusation of "Nazi apologism" qualifies a thought-terminating cliché, since it was very much secondary to her actual point (that it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of Cernovich's intent).

I'm not sure what part of this accusation Lana is taking offense with. Is that the "apologist" part, and the underlying implication that her defense of Cernovich (and others before him) might not have entirely been in good faith? Or does she object to the use of the word "Nazi" to describe a white identitarian, ultra-nationalist, male chauvinist, anti-semitic dog-whistling conspiracy theorist, presumably because he is not a proper ethno-nationalist and abstains from explicly blaming "the jews"? The world may never know, as she prefers to prentend being slandered for her principled opposition to Nazi-punching.

Or maybe we could try having a reasonable discussion about our respective definitions of Nazism hahaha who am I kidding.

I know how fun it is to play with Lana's personal outrage over being called anything less than a perfectly reasonable moderate, but... doesn't it feel like a distraction to move the subject away from her own terrible arguments? Every time someone calls her out on her bullshit, she just doubles down on the false equivalences and vague accusations of hypocrisy. The original post equated a bunch of 10-year-old offensive jokes with Barr's deplorable (heh) social media behavior while hired by ABC, and the best excuse she could find is that, I quote: "Roseanne only made one such tweet. Gunn made many.". (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=7952.msg318582#msg318582)
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 05:51:21 pm
It's not on Moffat to debunk. I'm on a classic Dr Who fanpage on Facebook and the moderators had to clean house to get rid of whiny dorks howling about the Doctor being a giiiiiiirrrlllll. Who yeah, howled about being censored after days howling "Shut it Down." Moffat has fuck all to do with it and should know better in any case, having been on the business end of lunatic fan outrage more than once.

I don't doubt that there was some backlash, but Moffat says that it was greatly exaggerated.
Your threshold for "debunked" is as high as Jacob Harrison's threshold for "proof."
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 25, 2018, 05:55:51 pm
Made a small edit to my previous post for people with reading comprehension difficulties.

Incidentally, I do not think Queen's accusation of "Nazi apologism" qualifies a thought-terminating cliché, since it was very much secondary to her actual point (that it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of Cernovich's intent).

I'm not sure what part of this accusation Lana is taking offense with. Is that the "apologist" part, and the underlying implication that her defense of Cernovich (and others before him) might not have entirely been in good faith? Or does she object to the use of the word "Nazi" to describe a white identitarian, ultra-nationalist, male chauvinist, anti-semitic dog-whistling conspiracy theorist, presumably because he is not a proper ethno-nationalist and abstains from explicly blaming "the jews"? The world may never know, as she prefers to prentend being slandered for her principled opposition to Nazi-punching.

Or maybe we could try having a reasonable discussion about our respective definitions of Nazism hahaha who am I kidding.

It's the first thing that I object to.

And I didn't know the precise definition of "thought-terminating cliche" was, and figured it was something along the lines of "ad hominem". When you assume, I guess. While Queenie's accusations of Nazi sympathies may not be thought-terminating cliches, they're still rude, unwarranted, and do not foster good discourse.

Just for the record, I'm down with a calm, rational discussion about outrage culture and how it affects people.

I know how fun it is to play with Lana's personal outrage over being called anything less than a perfectly reasonable moderate, but... doesn't it feel like a distraction to move the subject away from her own terrible arguments? Every time someone calls her out on her bullshit, she just doubles down on the false equivalences and vague accusations of hypocrisy. The original post equated a bunch of 10-year-old offensive jokes with Barr's deplorable (heh) social media behavior while hired by ABC, and the best excuse she could find is that, I quote: "Roseanne only made one such tweet. Gunn made many.". (http://forums.fstdt.net/index.php?topic=7952.msg318582#msg318582)

I'm not to proud to admit that when I get emotional, it's hard for me to argue. But I can be persuasive in calmer, less hostile interactions. So why don't we deescalate things a bit and have that discussion?

It's not on Moffat to debunk. I'm on a classic Dr Who fanpage on Facebook and the moderators had to clean house to get rid of whiny dorks howling about the Doctor being a giiiiiiirrrlllll. Who yeah, howled about being censored after days howling "Shut it Down." Moffat has fuck all to do with it and should know better in any case, having been on the business end of lunatic fan outrage more than once.

I don't doubt that there was some backlash, but Moffat says that it was greatly exaggerated.
Your threshold for "debunked" is as high as Jacob Harrison's threshold for "proof."

That would have more weight if you hadn't tried to rebut me with anecdotal evidence.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 25, 2018, 06:04:10 pm
Made a small edit to my previous post for people with reading comprehension difficulties.

Incidentally, I do not think Queen's accusation of "Nazi apologism" qualifies a thought-terminating cliché, since it was very much secondary to her actual point (that it is unreasonable to ask for evidence of Cernovich's intent).

I'm not sure what part of this accusation Lana is taking offense with. Is that the "apologist" part, and the underlying implication that her defense of Cernovich (and others before him) might not have entirely been in good faith? Or does she object to the use of the word "Nazi" to describe a white identitarian, ultra-nationalist, male chauvinist, anti-semitic dog-whistling conspiracy theorist, presumably because he is not a proper ethno-nationalist and abstains from explicly blaming "the jews"? The world may never know, as she prefers to prentend being slandered for her principled opposition to Nazi-punching.

Or maybe we could try having a reasonable discussion about our respective definitions of Nazism hahaha who am I kidding.

It's the first thing that I object to.

And I didn't know the precise definition of "thought-terminating cliche" was, and figured it was something along the lines of "ad hominem". When you assume, I guess. While Queenie's accusations of Nazi sympathies may not be thought-terminating cliches, they're still rude, unwarranted, and do not foster good discourse.

Just for the record, I'm down with a calm, rational discussion about outrage culture and how it affects people.

For the record, I don't give a fuck. I don't care about this debate, and will happily sit it out. As I have said before, I do not believe you argue in good-faith, and your preemptive request for Cenovich's intent belies your more recent request for good-faith discourse. I mean, here's proof Cernovich said it:

(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*y22n_XIn_ixkgxrBxjW8Gw.jpeg)

What do we have to gain by arguing whether he meant it? I mean, he said it, to the world, on twitter--indelibly--which is apparently good enough for presidential press releases.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 06:36:09 pm
Who's trying to rebut you? You're never satisfied with anything if not being satisfied with anything that contradicts your deliberatly specious offerings adds to the trolling. Trolls gonna troll but we know this party trick Lana-it's boring. Change the script yeah?

See Queen's post above. She found it, she presented it and you will switch to Gatekeeper of Truth mode and shift the boundries of what you'll except ever so slightly in a transparent attempt to make the person knocking down your house of cards look like the one presenting a contentious opinion to be defended. We know it, we've seen it and you're doing it right now.

Bored now. Change the script?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Lana Reverse on July 25, 2018, 06:49:40 pm
Who's trying to rebut you? You're never satisfied with anything if not being satisfied with anything that contradicts your deliberatly specious offerings adds to the trolling. Trolls gonna troll but we know this party trick Lana-it's boring. Change the script yeah?

See Queen's post above. She found it, she presented it and you will switch to Gatekeeper of Truth mode and shift the boundries of what you'll except ever so slightly in a transparent attempt to make the person knocking down your house of cards look like the one presenting a contentious opinion to be defended. We know it, we've seen it and you're doing it right now.

Bored now. Change the script?

Could you please stop trying to assign motives to me? Trying to cast aspersions on me?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 06:55:08 pm
Past behavior is the surest probable indicator of future behavior. I'm not talking about your motives, just what you do. We've all seen it, it worked for a bit but it's getting old now. We've all seen it before. New party trick, eh?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Sigmaleph on July 25, 2018, 07:58:24 pm
And why am I not surprised you're defending her? Once again, you show that you are a terrible moderator. That's not just my opinion either. I sent a PM to Sigmaleph complaining about your performance, and asking if there was something I was missing. She didn't even try to defend you, basically saying "yeah, he sucks, but I don't know anyone here right now who would do better." See for yourself:

I'm aware of the situation and don't have a good answer.

I don't know of anyone I could promote to a moderation position that would do better.

Before you go around insulting me, why don't you go look at yourself in the mirror?

Sigh.

Yes, I said that. No, I did not say Askold was a terrible moderator, nor do I believe that. I'm happy to explain the context for that statement if anyone cares, to the extent I can do so without disclosing things told to me in private.

The user Lana Reverse has been banned indefinitely, for not having a concept of private communication and for trying to use me to insult a different user I happen to respect far more than them.

Honestly, what did you expect?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 25, 2018, 08:06:00 pm
...WOW.  Fucking...just WOW.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 08:15:07 pm
...WOW.  Fucking...just WOW.
Eh, her shtick was all worn out and it's not as much fun when you know the script.

Frankly I prefer Jacob, he's not pretending to be a "true liberal." He's either Ali G/Borat revisited or else a genuinly batty fundie. Much more fun either way.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: davedan on July 25, 2018, 08:15:18 pm
Holy Shit Sigma! Bring the hammer down. Are you in a position to confirm or deny that Lana was in fact Ultimate Paragon/Dynamic Dragon?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 08:24:00 pm
Holy Shit Sigma! Bring the hammer down. Are you in a position to confirm or deny that Lana was in fact Ultimate Paragon/Dynamic Dragon?
Wonder what shape and colour the next sock will be?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: niam2023 on July 25, 2018, 09:01:13 pm
Gotten for something not even related to the Ultimate Paragon nonsense.

A shitty person does not need to be another shitty person for that person's actions to be bad.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Sigmaleph on July 25, 2018, 10:11:38 pm
Holy Shit Sigma! Bring the hammer down. Are you in a position to confirm or deny that Lana was in fact Ultimate Paragon/Dynamic Dragon?

I don't have evidence to the standards I would like to make a statement in either direction.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: The_Queen on July 25, 2018, 10:25:04 pm
Holy Shit Sigma! Bring the hammer down. Are you in a position to confirm or deny that Lana was in fact Ultimate Paragon/Dynamic Dragon?
Wonder what shape and colour the next sock will be?

Probably gambling in Casablanca.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: ironbite on July 25, 2018, 10:31:18 pm
About damn time that happened.

Ironbite-the fuck was that supposed to do anyways?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 25, 2018, 10:42:45 pm
About damn time that happened.

Ironbite-the fuck was that supposed to do anyways?
Convince you to embrace the path of True Liberalism(tm) my son. Now, how many Nazis have you cuddled today?

If not, why not? Have you read up on your Jordan Peterson and Ayn Rand yet? I don't think I'm quite convinced of your evidence for that!
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: davedan on July 25, 2018, 10:54:28 pm
Holy Shit Sigma! Bring the hammer down. Are you in a position to confirm or deny that Lana was in fact Ultimate Paragon/Dynamic Dragon?

I don't have evidence to the standards I would like to make a statement in either direction.

So nothing on the IP address? Or using a VPN?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Sigmaleph on July 26, 2018, 07:07:28 pm
Holy Shit Sigma! Bring the hammer down. Are you in a position to confirm or deny that Lana was in fact Ultimate Paragon/Dynamic Dragon?

I don't have evidence to the standards I would like to make a statement in either direction.

So nothing on the IP address? Or using a VPN?

IPs were not a match, which could mean any number of things.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: davedan on July 26, 2018, 07:08:35 pm
I take it they didn't have the same sign up email either?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 26, 2018, 09:14:59 pm
I remember someone showing a link to a KiwiFarms thread full of butthurt people muttering how we were as bad as GamerGhazi and they were totally gonna raid us a long time ago. Maybe the peeps in that thread have been drawing straws to see who gets a turn at triggering a libz. Not entirely implausible, the old Incel board Love Shy did the same when they thought we were being too mean to them too.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 26, 2018, 10:46:05 pm
Aah, LoveShy.  Its always fun to see language evolving before one's eyes.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: niam2023 on July 26, 2018, 10:50:15 pm
What ever happened to that LoveShy place?
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 26, 2018, 10:57:34 pm
What ever happened to that LoveShy place?
It metastatized!
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 27, 2018, 01:05:27 am
You know, I feel like I should wonder if I should feel bad about how FSTDT is the reason why I know what incels are. Then again, there is a low, but non-zero chance that I may have accidentally become one of those fuckers if I didn't see them for what they are first.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 27, 2018, 04:07:33 am
You know, I feel like I should wonder if I should feel bad about how FSTDT is the reason why I know what incels are. Then again, there is a low, but non-zero chance that I may have accidentally become one of those fuckers if I didn't see them for what they are first.
You're a decent, ethical guy-you have principles. It's more than being lonely and single, which I've been at times in my life, there's the uncritical hate.

Accuse me of blowing smoke up your ass if you want Cloud, but that's what I've observed.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: RavynousHunter on July 27, 2018, 09:17:12 am
You know, I feel like I should wonder if I should feel bad about how FSTDT is the reason why I know what incels are. Then again, there is a low, but non-zero chance that I may have accidentally become one of those fuckers if I didn't see them for what they are first.

The fact that you worry about such a thing proves that the chances of you joining their ranks is non-existent.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Cloud3514 on July 27, 2018, 02:59:00 pm
I mean, at this point, yeah. I was more referring to around ten years ago when I first stumbled upon this place. I was a dumb teenager. I'm still a dumb adult, but I like to think less so than I was then.
Title: Re: James Gunn Fired for Offensive Tweets
Post by: Tolpuddle Martyr on July 27, 2018, 10:07:30 pm
Ah, the edgelord phase. Because everyone needs one point in their life where the older you tells the younger you "gah, shut the fuck up-you're embarrassing both of us!"

Can't take 'em anywhere!