Author Topic: War Gaming  (Read 12186 times)

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Offline erictheblue

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War Gaming
« on: March 10, 2013, 09:13:54 pm »
Sorry if there is already a topic for this. I did a search and nothing came up...

Does anyone do tabletop war gaming? I just back from a war gaming con. I'd never been to one before, and had never actually played tabletop war games. I wasn't sure if I'd find a game that interested me, but I had a blast!

My father-in-law plays Civil War games (not sure what system), and played the Battles of Petersburg and Antietam, as well as a Revolutionary Era Battle of Germantown. My wife and mother-in-law did some dungeon crawls. My MiL also got in a few Blood and Swash games - a tavern brawl and a free-for-all battle on a riverboat. I played a G.A.S.L.I.G.H.T. game and a Blood and Swash game. (Was signed up for a BattleTech, but was late getting to it and so missed it. I was also signed up for a zombie game, but it was either canceled, moved, or just deserted, since no one else showed up.) 

I also found a really cool new fantasy game called Fanticide. We now have the rule book, the game cards, and 2 armies. (Looks like I get to learn to paint minis!)

My plan for the next con (in July) is to find a Crusades/Medieval era game to try to find a system in that era I like. I've always liked the history of that time, so if I am going to be going to these cons (and it seems I will be), I should find something I really enjoy playing. (Not that I didn't enjoy the games I was in. Just if I like that time period, why not do more with that interest.)
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 10:15:02 pm »
Wait, if you never played war games before, what's with the Grey Knight?
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Offline Yaezakura

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 11:14:09 pm »
Wait, if you never played war games before, what's with the Grey Knight?

I kind of have to echo this. I mean... your avatar is a Grey Knight, one of the chapters of Space Marines in WarHammer 40,000. It's a little odd to use something like that if you've never played 40k.

On that note, 40k is the only war game I really played. I've dabbled with others, but none really caught me like 40k did. I used to run Tyranids, got kinda bored with them after a while, though. I'm in the process of building up an Eldar army now, but it's slow going since I don't have much disposable income.

Offline FirsthandTuna

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 11:20:24 pm »
Wait, if you never played war games before, what's with the Grey Knight?

I kind of have to echo this. I mean... your avatar is a Grey Knight, one of the chapters of Space Marines in WarHammer 40,000. It's a little odd to use something like that if you've never played 40k.

On that note, 40k is the only war game I really played. I've dabbled with others, but none really caught me like 40k did. I used to run Tyranids, got kinda bored with them after a while, though. I'm in the process of building up an Eldar army now, but it's slow going since I don't have much disposable income.

I'm super excited because if he answers this right I might have a use for the Penitent Engine in my garage.

Played Warhammer 40k in high school but it's been... 4 years, I think. I have a soft spot for the setting, personally.
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 02:24:19 am »
So, to the other 40k players (Tau and Space Wolves here), can anyone explain why Daemons already got a new Codex? They were on a fifth edition Codex and it was by no means a bad book. And yet, Eldar and Tau are stuck with the oldest Codices in the game.
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Offline erictheblue

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 07:19:43 am »
Wait, if you never played war games before, what's with the Grey Knight?

Two reasons...

1) I read and love the 40K books. My favorite Chapter are the Gray Knights.
2) I would like to play 40K, but my wife has threatened my life if I took up that hobby since she knew she'd have to paint my figures. (If I learned to paint my own figures, she may be more forgiving...) As you can guess, if I did take it up, I would run either a Gray Knights or Demon Hunters army.

My wife and her brother both used to play. She ran Eldar and he ran Chaos (I think). Supposedly, their figures are still in the house somewhere.
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Offline Yaezakura

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 02:38:13 pm »
So, to the other 40k players (Tau and Space Wolves here), can anyone explain why Daemons already got a new Codex? They were on a fifth edition Codex and it was by no means a bad book. And yet, Eldar and Tau are stuck with the oldest Codices in the game.

A lot of it, sadly, comes down to what they think will sell better. This is why we get 31 flavors of Space Marine before they ever bother releasing material related to other armies. Space Marines are an idiot-friendly army, since they're both tough and versatile enough that you have a solid chance of winning no matter what composition you field.

Compare this to Eldar, who are a specialist-focused army. If you don't use every piece in exactly the right way, you have little hope for winning.

Then ask yourself which army more people are likely to pick up.

Chaos Daemons are, in a lot of ways, comparable to Space Marines in that regard. They're a very forgiving army, because they're nearly impossible to kill. So they sell reasonably well.

Offline Askold

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 03:48:12 pm »
Wait, if you never played war games before, what's with the Grey Knight?

Two reasons...

1) I read and love the 40K books. My favorite Chapter are the Gray Knights.
2) I would like to play 40K, but my wife has threatened my life if I took up that hobby since she knew she'd have to paint my figures. (If I learned to paint my own figures, she may be more forgiving...) As you can guess, if I did take it up, I would run either a Gray Knights or Demon Hunters army.

My wife and her brother both used to play. She ran Eldar and he ran Chaos (I think). Supposedly, their figures are still in the house somewhere.

I have a large collection of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k books and have played several of the computer games. I've only ever tried the board game two times and I really don't have the time/money/space to start collecting miniatures. I have also planned to try some of the rpg's particularly the new one where you play as imperial guardsmen.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 03:51:24 pm »
I like the universe, but I've never had the time, money, and patience to actually do the tabletop.
The material needs a defender more than the spiritual. If there is a higher power, it can defend itself from the material. Thus denotes 'higher power'.

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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 04:21:06 am »
2) I would like to play 40K, but my wife has threatened my life if I took up that hobby since she knew she'd have to paint my figures. (If I learned to paint my own figures, she may be more forgiving...) As you can guess, if I did take it up, I would run either a Gray Knights or Demon Hunters army.

Excuse me while go throw Matt Ward into an active volcano and get you painting lessons.
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Offline erictheblue

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 07:32:46 am »
2) I would like to play 40K, but my wife has threatened my life if I took up that hobby since she knew she'd have to paint my figures. (If I learned to paint my own figures, she may be more forgiving...) As you can guess, if I did take it up, I would run either a Gray Knights or Demon Hunters army.

Excuse me while go throw Matt Ward into an active volcano and get you painting lessons.

Other than the general hatred of Matt Ward, is there a reason you want to throw him into a volcano?

As for painting lessons, I will probably be painting my Fanticide minis, which will give me an introduction to the skill. They are a lot less intricate than 40K figures, but will still give the idea. 
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Offline Cloud3514

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 09:36:53 pm »
Other than the general hatred of Matt Ward, is there a reason you want to throw him into a volcano?

He wrote the Grey Knights book and that book is the most poorly written book in the game. The fluff is garbage and portrays the Knights as these perfect demonhunters who literally cannot be corrupted... despite the fact that the entire Chapter is made up of Psykers. There are two things in the book that are so bad that even the most die hard Grey Knight defenders have difficult excusing.

First, there is an account of a time where the Grey Knights killed a regiment of Sisters of Battle and then covered their armor with Sister of Battle blood. It's excused as making them harder to corrupt, which makes no fucking sense that killing things and bathing in the blood of the things you killed totally isn't something Khorne followers would do, not at all!

Second, Chapter Master Keldor Draigo. A character that is such a fucking Mary Sue that I have yet to meet someone who defends the fluff around him, even if they use him for being really fucking powerful (though I would wager that Logan Grimnar, the Great Wolf (Space Wolves Chapter Master) is a bit more powerful on the table). His fluff is that, after a battle where he killed a demon prince, he was cursed to be sucked into the Warp. He is trapped there for as long as he lives... but he can't be corrupted. Why because he's a Grey Knight and Grey Knights are so pure, that they can NEVER be corrupted... even though they're all Psykers. Furthermore, not only is he constantly fighting the Forces of Chaos in the Warp with no rest, which makes no sense already, he will occasionally be transported back into real space, chasing after the demons that are heading out to fight the Grey Knights. And he's still completely uncorrupted. Hell, Inquisitors don't even make the logical assumption of him being corrupted because he's a PURE AND UNCORRUPTABLE GREY KNIGHT!!! That, I especially call bullshit on because an Inquisitor working with the Grey Knights would watch him walk out of a Warp portal and immediately tell the Grey Knight Captain he was fighting with to blast Draigo with a fucking Lascannon because there is no fucking way a Psyker could spend any significant amount of time in the warp and walk out uncorrupted.

Their rules can get pretty ridiculous, as well. Unrestricted Terminator troops choices! Even Dark Angels have to buy the right HQ to do that. The Nemesis Dreadknight! Which is one of the most horribly overpowered units in the game with a rather low points cost (130 points), two free Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (which pushes its strength from 6 to 10 and gives it an extra attack), an option for a Personal Teleporter and the fact that it's a Monstrous Creature with a 2+ Armor Save in the first place. Compare this to the fact that Dreadnoughts cost 105 points and aren't even close to as powerful as a Dreadknight with no options.

While there is some other stuff that people point to when criticizing Grey Knight rules, the Dreadknight is probably the most bullshit thing that Matt Ward has ever written. But that's not all he's written.

He wrote Blood Angels, which has fluff that included a story of Blood Angels and Necrons teaming up against Tyranids. On its own, this isn't a bad idea as it highlights how much of a threat the Tyranids are. The problem is the fact that, after fighting off the Tyranids, both the Blood Angels and the Necrons just turned around and left, which would never fucking happen. After fighting off the Tyranids, they should have gone back to shooting each other.

Plus, there's the fact that due to being able to take Assault Marines as Troops and the rule that gives discounts on transports if you remove Assault Marine Jump Packs, a Blood Angels player can actually make a better Leaf Blower tank list than the Imperial Guard. AND there's the fact that all of their vehicles are Fast, with the exception of the Land Raider, which can Deepstrike instead AND the fact that their special Predator, the Baal Predator (which has some bullshit fluff around it) is not just Fast, but also a Scout, meaning that a fucking TANK can sneak around the battlefield and enter the game behind enemy lines.

And Ward also wrote the 5th Edition Space Marines book, which has nothing too bad in terms of rules as it's largely just an update to previous rules, but the fluff can only be described as Ultramarines worship. According to that book, there are three kinds of Marine Chapters: Ultramarines and their successors, Chapters that want to be Ultramarines and rogue Chapters that don't and are dying off as a result. Yeah, because the Space Wolves being 10,000 men strong means that they're struggling to survive. Alternatively, tell the Space Wolves that they want to be Ultramarines and count how long before you're either laughed out the airlock or one of them punches you through a wall in anger.

His Warhammer Fantasy Daemons of Chaos book BROKE 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy. Tournament organizers would often do things like house rule a 2000 point tournament that Daemons players were restricted to 1500 points because of how unbelievably overpowered they were.

His White Dwarf Sisters of Battle Codex is regarded as almost unplayable because it is extremely underpowered.

His Necrons Codex is the best book he's written... and it still sucks. Necron Warriors are completely worthless since Immortals are available as Troops and there's no incentive to not take three squads of Immortals instead of four squads of Warriors. Scarabs make Land Raiders into Swiss Cheese and are Beasts, meaning that they can move around the board VERY quickly, even if they can't free Assault at 12'' anymore. The Doom Scythe is the most powerful Flyer in the game... and Necron players can take three of them and NINE of their Transport variant, the Night Scythe, which means that Necrons can take more flyers than any other army will ever likely be able to take and the Night Scythe, while not half as bad as the Doom Scythe is nothing to sneeze at.

The Doom Scythe, however, is ridiculous. Unlike all of the other Necron vehicles, it does not have Quantum Shielding, which is about the only lucky break you get against it. It's cheap. It's only 175 points. It has a Strength 10 beam weapon that can hit at practically any angle and it has a rather powerful secondary gun that it can also fire with no restrictions due to the nature of Flyers. Being a Flyer, it can also zoom around the board with practically nothing getting in its way and, also due to being a Flyer, it is difficult to hit if you don't have weapons with Skyfire as shooting at Flyers without Skyfire means that you're shooting at Balistics Skill 1.

Compare that to a Space Marine Predator with Twin-Linked Lascannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. It's 130 points for that tank. And the Predator is a good tank. Even better comparison: A Tau Hammerhead with Railgun. With no other options, that Hammerhead is 150 points. It is also a good tank, especially with it's large variety of cheap options. The Doom Scythe is FAR more powerful than what an extra 25-45 points warrants.

I hope that helps demonstrate why people hate Matt Ward.

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As for painting lessons, I will probably be painting my Fanticide minis, which will give me an introduction to the skill. They are a lot less intricate than 40K figures, but will still give the idea. 

That's actually a really good idea.
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Offline FirsthandTuna

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 12:28:07 am »
His White Dwarf Sisters of Battle Codex is regarded as almost unplayable because it is extremely underpowered.

This. This this this. Also, this is why you play with people who don't mind if you make changes to the rules here and there.
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Offline erictheblue

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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 09:31:17 pm »
I've read various places about player's hatred of Ward, but never knew why. (Other than the "his books are crap.") Thank you for explaining it to me.

He wrote the Grey Knights book and that book is the most poorly written book in the game. The fluff is garbage and portrays the Knights as these perfect demonhunters who literally cannot be corrupted... despite the fact that the entire Chapter is made up of Psykers.

I thought that was long-established canon, and the rituals they go through to become GK is what keeps them from being corruptible..? Or something outside one guy's mind that made them that way?

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First, there is an account of a time where the Grey Knights killed a regiment of Sisters of Battle and then covered their armor with Sister of Battle blood. It's excused as making them harder to corrupt, which makes no fucking sense that killing things and bathing in the blood of the things you killed totally isn't something Khorne followers would do, not at all!

This is the same chapter that chased down IG regiments that fought Abaddon to kill them so word of Chaos would not get out...  :-\

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He wrote Blood Angels, which has fluff that included a story of Blood Angels and Necrons teaming up against Tyranids. On its own, this isn't a bad idea as it highlights how much of a threat the Tyranids are. The problem is the fact that, after fighting off the Tyranids, both the Blood Angels and the Necrons just turned around and left, which would never fucking happen. After fighting off the Tyranids, they should have gone back to shooting each other.

OK, yeah, that's dumb. Necrons want to destroy all life. Blood Angels are alive...

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but the fluff can only be described as Ultramarines worship.

UGH! I can't stand Ultra-Smurfs... They're so perfect they are annoying...

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As for painting lessons, I will probably be painting my Fanticide minis, which will give me an introduction to the skill. They are a lot less intricate than 40K figures, but will still give the idea. 

That's actually a really good idea.

I'm going out this weekend to get paint.
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Re: War Gaming
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 09:41:28 pm »
I've read various places about player's hatred of Ward, but never knew why. (Other than the "his books are crap.") Thank you for explaining it to me.

He wrote the Grey Knights book and that book is the most poorly written book in the game. The fluff is garbage and portrays the Knights as these perfect demonhunters who literally cannot be corrupted... despite the fact that the entire Chapter is made up of Psykers.

I thought that was long-established canon, and the rituals they go through to become GK is what keeps them from being corruptible..? Or something outside one guy's mind that made them that way?
As far as I can tell the Grey knights more or less plopped into cannon with their codex coming out. At least their modern incarnation. Looks like there may have been some mention of Grey Knights long before that, but that wouldn't really match up with their current fluff of killing any and all things which they encounter(which leaves them as bigger assholes than the necrons in my book). And after reading as much of the Horus heresy books as I have I just realized something horrible about what they're going to do with Garro... no damn it, don't do it, don't turn him into this crap. He's better than this.