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Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: CaseAgainstFaith on September 22, 2012, 02:33:02 pm
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Fox news is one of Americas most prevalent cultural exports. Local cable pkgs here in asia usually have one english channel (fox), and in Europe. It is often the only place people overseas get their information regarding america, and it forms their impressions of us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News#International_transmission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News#International_transmission)
http://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10aab3/ysk_that_fox_news_is_one_of_americas_most/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10aab3/ysk_that_fox_news_is_one_of_americas_most/)
Well this could explain quite a bit as to the reason why all the other countries think America is full of crazy people. When all you have is Fox for your news source....
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You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
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Fun fact: Most of the news channels on the Sky digital platform in the UK (ie, part of NewsCorp just like Fox) including Sky News, BBC News, CNN, France 24, CNBC, Russia Today and Al Jazeera English are free-to-air. Fox news isn't: it's part of Sky's entertainment subscription package.
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Actually I doubt it has anything to do with Fox News.
Europeans, especially those in the UK, are well aware of your almost none existant gun laws, obsessive religious cranks, your relentlessly rightwing politics despite the fact that the GOP have nothing but barely disguised contempt for half the population, uber expensive healthcare, pointless and costly wars in 3rd world countries, your obesity epidemic, tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays, your fixation with electing 2nd rate celebrities and clapped out generals to political office. Most ridiculous of all is the fact that despite all this and much more you insist on seeing your country as "the shining city on the hill" that the rest of the world is just gagging to live in. Well believe me we're not.
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Actually I doubt it has anything to do with Fox News.
Europeans, especially those in the UK, are well aware of your almost none existant gun laws, obsessive religious cranks, your relentlessly rightwing politics despite the fact that the GOP have nothing but barely disguised contempt for half the population, uber expensive healthcare, pointless and costly wars in 3rd world countries, your obesity epidemic, tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays, your fixation with electing 2nd rate celebrities and clapped out generals to political office. Most ridiculous of all is the fact that despite all this and much more you insist on seeing your country as "the shining city on the hill" that the rest of the world is just gagging to live in. Well believe me we're not.
I believe you.
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Well, getting rid of Faux News would fix a decent portion of that.
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Actually I doubt it has anything to do with Fox News.
Europeans, especially those in the UK, are well aware of your almost none existant gun laws, obsessive religious cranks, your relentlessly rightwing politics despite the fact that the GOP have nothing but barely disguised contempt for half the population, uber expensive healthcare, pointless and costly wars in 3rd world countries, your obesity epidemic, tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays, your fixation with electing 2nd rate celebrities and clapped out generals to political office. Most ridiculous of all is the fact that despite all this and much more you insist on seeing your country as "the shining city on the hill" that the rest of the world is just gagging to live in. Well believe me we're not.
Okay, dissection time. Preface, first. I agree that America is fucked up. We've got a lot of problems, and you've nailed quite a few of them, but you're coming across with just a hint of strawman, allow me to elucidate.
1) Our gun laws are quite lax compared to the rest of the world, but its as much an issue of wrangling with the 2nd Amendment as it is simple practicality. America has a total landmass of ~9.83 million square kilometers. For comparison, England has a landmass of 243,610 square kilometers. We're over 40 times the size of England. Policing that much area on a federal level is very difficult, logistically. Look at Prohibition, we tried to outlaw liquor on a nation-wide level, and we were never able to adequately enforce it. The same would happen if we adopted England-style gun control laws. Criminals already break the laws for robbery, rape, and murder, why would they possibly follow laws against guns?
There's a lot of land, and a lot of places to hide, in America. Its why the drug trade is so prolific, despite the incredible amount of money we've poured into the War on Drugs. Some things work on a federal level, some things don't, which is why we have 3 levels of government. But, even if you had it enforced all the way down to the local level, we need only look again at Prohibition. It didn't work. People will be bought, people will be swayed, and some simply won't care enough to actually do anything.
2) Every country has insane religious nuts. Or, do I really need to point out the likes of Anders Breivik and the Ayatollah?
3) Obesity is a problem everywhere, not just in America. NEXT.
4) Sports? Really? You're calling our country insane because we focus on sports that most of the world doesn't play? How the hell does that even begin to matter?
5) To my knowledge, we've only elected one celebrity and one general to our Presidency: Ronald Reagan and Ulysses S. Grant, respectively. While Reagan is worshiped by the GOP, pretty much everyone at the time agreed that Grant was a shitty president.
You make some good points, but you make flawed ones, as well. I wouldn't call them strawmen per se, but they're...uncomfortably close, if ya ask me.
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Ike was a general too, but IMO he was a pretty good President.
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Aah, aye. Still, generals and celebrities are far from the norm for elected officials. They're pretty much always in some form of state or federal government, ie: governors, reps, senators.
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I don't see anything horribly wrong with generals running for office. First-hand military experience is hardly a bad thing to have in someone who tells the military what to do.
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Never said it was a good or bad thing, just rare.
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Some of wyvern's stuff is wrong, but he is correct in general, we don't need Fox News to see how fucked up America is.
Ike was a general too, but IMO he was a pretty good President.
Yeah, aside from endorsing MacArthur's clearing out of the Bonus Army, he deposed the elected Mossadegh in Iran, suppressed a revolution in Lebanon and laid the basis for American involvement in Vietnam. He also increased spending on strategic nuclear weapons. A truly great guy.
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"fox news"
Stopped reading there
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Some of wyvern's stuff is wrong, but he is correct in general, we don't need Fox News to see how fucked up America is.
Ike was a general too, but IMO he was a pretty good President.
Yeah, aside from endorsing MacArthur's clearing out of the Bonus Army, he deposed the elected Mossadegh in Iran, suppressed a revolution in Lebanon and laid the basis for American involvement in Vietnam. He also increased spending on strategic nuclear weapons. A truly great guy.
I DID say "IMO".
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Some of wyvern's stuff is wrong, but he is correct in general, we don't need Fox News to see how fucked up America is.
Ike was a general too, but IMO he was a pretty good President.
Yeah, aside from endorsing MacArthur's clearing out of the Bonus Army, he deposed the elected Mossadegh in Iran, suppressed a revolution in Lebanon and laid the basis for American involvement in Vietnam. He also increased spending on strategic nuclear weapons. A truly great guy.
I DID say "IMO".
Yeah, well your opinion is wrong and that makes you a bad person!
[/joking reactionary comment]
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Some of wyvern's stuff is wrong, but he is correct in general, we don't need Fox News to see how fucked up America is.
Ike was a general too, but IMO he was a pretty good President.
Yeah, aside from endorsing MacArthur's clearing out of the Bonus Army, he deposed the elected Mossadegh in Iran, suppressed a revolution in Lebanon and laid the basis for American involvement in Vietnam. He also increased spending on strategic nuclear weapons. A truly great guy.
I DID say "IMO".
Eh, whatever.
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I don't see anything horribly wrong with generals running for office. First-hand military experience is hardly a bad thing to have in someone who tells the military what to do.
I don't think Eisenhower ever actually got any first-hand military experience. He was a staff officer for most of his career.
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tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays
... seriously? The other stuff is worth criticizing, but who cares which sports Americans watch? Is the obsession over the World Cup really any less ridiculous than Americans getting riled up over the Superbowl or NBA playoffs?
1) Our gun laws are quite lax compared to the rest of the world, but its as much an issue of wrangling with the 2nd Amendment as it is simple practicality. America has a total landmass of ~9.83 million square kilometers. For comparison, England has a landmass of 243,610 square kilometers. We're over 40 times the size of England. Policing that much area on a federal level is very difficult, logistically. Look at Prohibition, we tried to outlaw liquor on a nation-wide level, and we were never able to adequately enforce it. The same would happen if we adopted England-style gun control laws. Criminals already break the laws for robbery, rape, and murder, why would they possibly follow laws against guns?
There's a lot of land, and a lot of places to hide, in America. Its why the drug trade is so prolific, despite the incredible amount of money we've poured into the War on Drugs. Some things work on a federal level, some things don't, which is why we have 3 levels of government. But, even if you had it enforced all the way down to the local level, we need only look again at Prohibition. It didn't work. People will be bought, people will be swayed, and some simply won't care enough to actually do anything.
It's not just land size. Canada has more land area, but manages to enforce stricter gun laws. Population size is also a huge factor, along with cultural differences, and so on.
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The country with the most expensive education system in the world has 50% of the population believe that earth is younger than 10'000 years. (Ok this was an old poll, I think it has gone down by now.)
The country that despises "socialized-medicine" but stills spends more goverment money per citizen into heathcare costs than countries that do have socialized-medicine.
The country that has given their president authority to exterminate foreign citizens in other countries. (Which is a bit weird. Doesn't the country that this person is in have some say to this? Isn't this like me giving myself the authority to go to my neighbours house and empty their fridge if I want to?)
Also, we are a bit freaked out by the fact that USA puts as much money into military than the rest of the Earth combined.
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Actually I doubt it has anything to do with Fox News.
Europeans, especially those in the UK, are well aware of your almost none existant gun laws, obsessive religious cranks, your relentlessly rightwing politics despite the fact that the GOP have nothing but barely disguised contempt for half the population, uber expensive healthcare, pointless and costly wars in 3rd world countries, your obesity epidemic, tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays, your fixation with electing 2nd rate celebrities and clapped out generals to political office. Most ridiculous of all is the fact that despite all this and much more you insist on seeing your country as "the shining city on the hill" that the rest of the world is just gagging to live in. Well believe me we're not.
Which is just about exactly what you'd believe about this country by watching fox news.
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Pretty much, hehe.
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tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays
... seriously? The other stuff is worth criticizing, but who cares which sports Americans watch? Is the obsession over the World Cup really any less ridiculous than Americans getting riled up over the Superbowl or NBA playoffs?
There's often been arguments made that the US having a sporting scene that's somewhat insular is a reflection of their insular attitudes as a nation. Though actually in reality the US might actually have the most inclusive sporting scene in the world because it's hard to find a sport that isn't played competitively there.
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I don't see anything horribly wrong with generals running for office. First-hand military experience is hardly a bad thing to have in someone who tells the military what to do.
I don't think Eisenhower ever actually got any first-hand military experience. He was a staff officer for most of his career.
Better than some dumb fuck from Texas who only accomplished anything in life because of daddy's money.
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Actually I doubt it has anything to do with Fox News.
Europeans, especially those in the UK, are well aware of your almost none existant gun laws, obsessive religious cranks, your relentlessly rightwing politics despite the fact that the GOP have nothing but barely disguised contempt for half the population, uber expensive healthcare, pointless and costly wars in 3rd world countries, your obesity epidemic, tedious sports, baseball, gridiron, basketball, that almost no other country plays, your fixation with electing 2nd rate celebrities and clapped out generals to political office. Most ridiculous of all is the fact that despite all this and much more you insist on seeing your country as "the shining city on the hill" that the rest of the world is just gagging to live in. Well believe me we're not.
Well, if that's the way it's gonna be
We all can start thinking Europe is a friggen hellhole with the rampant drug use, the "chavs" knifing people at will in the street and that every game of football there will resort in some massive riot that requires the police to call in help to subdue. That at any moment another riot will break out and that despite all the talk about getting along and unity, Europe just can't wait to get into another friggen war against itself like 1918 and 1939. That all those in the Scandinavian countries are blue eyed, blond haired freaks and all those in Spain believe that spearing an enraged bull makes you a man. That England leads them all as the others are all too pussy to stand up and lead their own countries.
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You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
A majority of people who vote.
Some very rapid changes could happen in politics if someone came along who knew the right way to get all the people who typically don't vote on his/her side.
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You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
A majority of people who vote.
Some very rapid changes could happen in politics if someone came along who knew the right way to get all the people who typically don't vote on his/her side.
We had a person like that.
His name is Barack Obama.
Weirdly enough, we have a system of checks and balances, so his vote-gathering abilities didn't give him much in the way of legislative power. Funny how that works.
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RavynousHunter and DasFuchs are missing wyvern's point. It's not about justifications, or shooting back, it's what the public perception of the US outside of America is. (though granted, it's a negatively slanted list. That may have been the image in the Bush years, but I think it's improved since then.)
That said, I don't think it's because anyone significantly watches Fox News over here.
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You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
A majority of people who vote.
Some very rapid changes could happen in politics if someone came along who knew the right way to get all the people who typically don't vote on his/her side.
We had a person like that.
His name is Barack Obama.
Weirdly enough, we have a system of checks and balances, so his vote-gathering abilities didn't give him much in the way of legislative power. Funny how that works.
I know you're voluteering for Obama, but I won't go that far and call him the "best person" for the job, especially with some of the moves he has done within the last 4 years. That being said, if we had some sanity in politics, not having nutters and/or people who act like toddlers running the show on the other side of the aisle, stuff could actually get done to a certain degree.
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You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
A majority of people who vote.
Some very rapid changes could happen in politics if someone came along who knew the right way to get all the people who typically don't vote on his/her side.
We had a person like that.
His name is Barack Obama.
Weirdly enough, we have a system of checks and balances, so his vote-gathering abilities didn't give him much in the way of legislative power. Funny how that works.
Nope.
A majority of Americans did not vote for Obama.
Hopefully someday we'll see an election where a president is literally elected by the majority of the people and not just the majority of people who vote.
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You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
A majority of people who vote.
Some very rapid changes could happen in politics if someone came along who knew the right way to get all the people who typically don't vote on his/her side.
We had a person like that.
His name is Barack Obama.
Weirdly enough, we have a system of checks and balances, so his vote-gathering abilities didn't give him much in the way of legislative power. Funny how that works.
I know you're voluteering for Obama, but I won't go that far and call him the "best person" for the job, especially with some of the moves he has done within the last 4 years. That being said, if we had some sanity in politics, not having nutters and/or people who act like toddlers running the show on the other side of the aisle, stuff could actually get done to a certain degree.
I didn't say he was the best person, I was replying to Reasonator's statement that someone who could entice non-voters into voting would be able to make a lot of changes. A record number of young people (traditionally non-voters) supported Obama in 2008, so saying that changes would happen if non-voters would just vote for someone is absurd. The voting has to be consistent and over the course of several years for that to happen. The problem isn't non-voters voting for the first time, the problem is that they don't keep voting over the course of years, which is one of the causes of the ridiculous amount of political turnover we have.
You mean our political system isn't enough of a reason?
Insane minority or not, it takes a majority to keep these assclowns in office.
A majority of people who vote.
Some very rapid changes could happen in politics if someone came along who knew the right way to get all the people who typically don't vote on his/her side.
We had a person like that.
His name is Barack Obama.
Weirdly enough, we have a system of checks and balances, so his vote-gathering abilities didn't give him much in the way of legislative power. Funny how that works.
Nope.
A majority of Americans did not vote for Obama.
Hopefully someday we'll see an election where a president is literally elected by the majority of the people and not just the majority of people who vote.
You didn't say "majority," you said, "people who typically don't vote." People who typically don't vote aren't necessarily the deciding factor in a majority.
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You didn't say "majority," you said, "people who typically don't vote." People who typically don't vote aren't necessarily the deciding factor in a majority.
Not to mention after subtracting in the under 18 and felon populations a majority of the country voting for someone is remarkably unlikely.
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1) Our gun laws are quite lax compared to the rest of the world, but its as much an issue of wrangling with the 2nd Amendment as it is simple practicality. America has a total landmass of ~9.83 million square kilometers. For comparison, England has a landmass of 243,610 square kilometers. We're over 40 times the size of England. Policing that much area on a federal level is very difficult, logistically.
Aussie here, we have gun laws that are arguably the strictest in the world. Much lower population density than you and 7,741,000 km².
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You didn't say "majority," you said, "people who typically don't vote." People who typically don't vote aren't necessarily the deciding factor in a majority.
Not to mention after subtracting in the under 18 and felon populations a majority of the country voting for someone is remarkably unlikely.
Do felons still not regain the vote after being let out of prison? Because that's kinda retarded if it is.
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You didn't say "majority," you said, "people who typically don't vote." People who typically don't vote aren't necessarily the deciding factor in a majority.
Not to mention after subtracting in the under 18 and felon populations a majority of the country voting for someone is remarkably unlikely.
Do felons still not regain the vote after being let out of prison? Because that's kinda retarded if it is.
It depends on the state. I think we should let felons vote from prison. Two states, Vermont and Maine allow felons to vote from prison and haven't suffered any serious problems from it.
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It takes a lot of batshit crazy people for the Republican party to even remotely have a chance in politics. The thing is, it's easy for the crazies to overrun everything when the media is under the control of manipulative assholes who use it for their own advantage. The problem isn't that Americans are crazy, but that most people in general are crazy under the wrong circumstances, and and American politics are a good example of that. And not even the perfect example (that would be the middle east).
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Been to the US, have worked there and have worked with lots of Americans over here in the UK. Most of them are nice people, some of the kindest most educated people I have ever met, but....
In Europe we have certain rights such as free speech. We believe that you have the right to say whatever you want but are expected ( kind of unwritten rule ) to try not be be blatantly offensive. Obviously we have dicks over here but they are rightly confronted by the mainstream and marginalised. The debate on evolution pretty much ended when Life of Brian came out.
In America you have similar rights, however many Americans believe that if you have the right to something then YOU MUST DO IT. TO THE MAX. ITS YOUR RIGHT. Freedom of speech becomes a REQUIREMENT to be rude, confrontational and abusive. You get lawmakers making blatantly racists statements that in Europe would finish their career. To the American mindset calling Obama a "dirty brown communist" is not racist - its freedom of speech. Its my damn right to say whatever I want no matter how offensive or factually incorrect it is.
Allowed to own guns? Yeah I want a fucking machine gun. No I want five. And a flamethrower. Just because.
Like big cars? Yeah I want a fucking humv. Climate change is bull. I am going to burn even more gas.
America has this strange "its my right to be a fucking ignorant arsehole" attitude. It's everyone's right to be a dick, but in the US its something a lot of people aspire to. Being an offensive loudmouth who talks big, shouts loud, insults everyone, never takes advice, never listens to the other side, etc, is considered a sign of strength.
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And my current two favourite tv shows are Real Housewives of Beverley Hills and Doomsday Preppers.
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America has this strange "its my right to be a fucking ignorant arsehole" attitude. It's everyone's right to be a dick, but in the US its something a lot of people aspire to. Being an offensive loudmouth who talks big, shouts loud, insults everyone, never takes advice, never listens to the other side, etc, is considered a sign of strength.
We do have that right, and sometimes people do take that approach. But we also suffer from the problem of w can't keep the most ignorant gasbags off the television. And you having been here and worked with us, I have to assume you've seen that.
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Been to the US, have worked there and have worked with lots of Americans over here in the UK. Most of them are nice people, some of the kindest most educated people I have ever met, but....
In Europe we have certain rights such as free speech. We believe that you have the right to say whatever you want but are expected ( kind of unwritten rule ) to try not be be blatantly offensive. Obviously we have dicks over here but they are rightly confronted by the mainstream and marginalised. The debate on evolution pretty much ended when Life of Brian came out.
In America you have similar rights, however many Americans believe that if you have the right to something then YOU MUST DO IT. TO THE MAX. ITS YOUR RIGHT. Freedom of speech becomes a REQUIREMENT to be rude, confrontational and abusive. You get lawmakers making blatantly racists statements that in Europe would finish their career. To the American mindset calling Obama a "dirty brown communist" is not racist - its freedom of speech. Its my damn right to say whatever I want no matter how offensive or factually incorrect it is.
Allowed to own guns? Yeah I want a fucking machine gun. No I want five. And a flamethrower. Just because.
Like big cars? Yeah I want a fucking humv. Climate change is bull. I am going to burn even more gas.
America has this strange "its my right to be a fucking ignorant arsehole" attitude. It's everyone's right to be a dick, but in the US its something a lot of people aspire to. Being an offensive loudmouth who talks big, shouts loud, insults everyone, never takes advice, never listens to the other side, etc, is considered a sign of strength.
A lot of people don't get that "government" is just one form of "social control" and that "freedom of speech" is a restriction only on that particular form of social control. Criticism, even disdain is a perfectly acceptable response to someone's speech.
When someone brings up "free speech" to justify being a douchebag I remind them that I also have free speech and I can use my free speech to call them a douchebag.
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1) Our gun laws are quite lax compared to the rest of the world, but its as much an issue of wrangling with the 2nd Amendment as it is simple practicality. America has a total landmass of ~9.83 million square kilometers. For comparison, England has a landmass of 243,610 square kilometers. We're over 40 times the size of England. Policing that much area on a federal level is very difficult, logistically.
Aussie here, we have gun laws that are arguably the strictest in the world. Much lower population density than you and 7,741,000 km².
True, but you also don't share a border with a country that's more famous for drug cartels and illegal gun shipments than it is for clean drinking water.
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The net gun trade goes INTO Mexico, not out of it.