Author Topic: Michael and Debi Pearl.  (Read 22226 times)

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Offline rosenewock21

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2012, 10:04:37 am »
Said it on the old forums... so once again, repugnant as I find the Pearls personally, freedom of speech, its not just for people you agree with.

Except even freedom of speech has its limits. You are free to tell someone you think they are a godless, immoral, faggot who will rot in the bowels of hell for all eternity (it hurt to type that). You are not free, or shouldn't be at least, to order people to kill someone because you believe the previous statement.

Another example is yelling "Fire!" in a crowded area. Your free speech ended the moment you put people in danger.
Sure, if there is no fire. The Pearls (presumably) don't believe what they are doing is akin to a false alarm.

Except children have died because of their methods. Methods that are patently child abuse. If the parents of the children can be charged with child abuse for acting upon the Pearls' instructions then the Pearls are guilty of conspiracy to commit child abuse.
Hey, I agree, but to restrict somewones freedom of speech, you gotta have a proven causal link. Has such a link been established in a couirt of law?

Are we talking United States or UK? Because those laws are apparently on the books in the UK. Oregon appears to have a law regarding free speech as it relates to sex crimes.

And alcohol advertisements are subject to censorship within the definitions of the laws. Things like not advertising to minors. Not encouraging people to drink and drive. Things like that.
Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." God's own "don't be a dick" rule.

Lithp and Vene really need to have some kind of confusing sexual encounter where Vene spends the entire session lovingly insulting Lithp's technique, then cums on his face, ruffles his hair, says, "You're all right, kid!", and then punches him in the nuts.

Offline lighthorseman

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2012, 10:09:06 am »
I'm talking about natural law in free societies... you can't just say "you're not allowed to say that" unless you can provide a damn good reason, no?
Let me make it real easy... if anyone is interested in my actual opinion, please ask, I'd love to talk to you. If you are interested in trying to catch me out in some sort of "gotcha, before you said 'many', but now you're saying 'lots', you totally shifted goal posts", then, I'm not playing.

Offline rosenewock21

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2012, 10:12:13 am »
Really? Are you really making this argument or are you so entrenched in playing devil's advocate that you can't see where the line of good, decent common sense gets drawn?

Children died. Children, let me highlight that for you, Died, and that too. Because of their advice children are dead.

At what point in time can anyone advocate that free speech becomes more important than a child's life?
Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." God's own "don't be a dick" rule.

Lithp and Vene really need to have some kind of confusing sexual encounter where Vene spends the entire session lovingly insulting Lithp's technique, then cums on his face, ruffles his hair, says, "You're all right, kid!", and then punches him in the nuts.

Offline lighthorseman

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2012, 10:19:43 am »
Really? Are you really making this argument or are you so entrenched in playing devil's advocate that you can't see where the line of good, decent common sense gets drawn?

Children died. Children, let me highlight that for you, Died, and that too. Because of their advice children are dead.

At what point in time can anyone advocate that free speech becomes more important than a child's life?
Again, while I agree with what you're saying personally, I ask again, has it been proven that kids have died because of the Pearls? To the standards of a court?

Yeah, I think the Pearls are first order arseholes, but it is possible that the kids who died died because their parents were terrible. Maybe those kids would have died at their parent's hands anyway.

Let me try it another way... what if a fundie believed, just as firmly as you or I believe the Pearls are bad news, that homosexual parents lead to kids being killed. You think that fundie should be able to limit free speech relating to homosexual rights regarding parenting because of unproven belief?
Let me make it real easy... if anyone is interested in my actual opinion, please ask, I'd love to talk to you. If you are interested in trying to catch me out in some sort of "gotcha, before you said 'many', but now you're saying 'lots', you totally shifted goal posts", then, I'm not playing.

Offline rosenewock21

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2012, 10:33:56 am »
Really? Are you really making this argument or are you so entrenched in playing devil's advocate that you can't see where the line of good, decent common sense gets drawn?

Children died. Children, let me highlight that for you, Died, and that too. Because of their advice children are dead.

At what point in time can anyone advocate that free speech becomes more important than a child's life?
Again, while I agree with what you're saying personally, I ask again, has it been proven that kids have died because of the Pearls? To the standards of a court?

Yeah, I think the Pearls are first order arseholes, but it is possible that the kids who died died because their parents were terrible. Maybe those kids would have died at their parent's hands anyway.

Let me try it another way... what if a fundie believed, just as firmly as you or I believe the Pearls are bad news, that homosexual parents lead to kids being killed. You think that fundie should be able to limit free speech relating to homosexual rights regarding parenting because of unproven belief?

Would the fundie be able to prove it in a court of law? Would they be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that homosexuality was why the child was killed? Not because of glaring neglect but because the parents thought that they some how had to sacrifice their kids to Jehovah or something to absolve themselves?

Prove that to me and we'll talk. Considering there are topics on this forum about how homosexuals might actually make better parents than the average straight couple I don't think you can do it and neither could they.

On the other hand, children died because of abuse. The abuse that was outlined by the Pearls. Their method of madness when dealing with children directly led to the deaths of children. That points to conspiracy to commit child abuse.

An example along a similar vein. My uncle used to own a book that taught you how to make bombs, ranging from the standard pipe bomb to a smoke bomb that allegedly could douse two city blocks in thick smoke. While the book didn't explicitly say to go out and use these for terrorist acts I have no doubt if a similar book were to be published today, and someone used the bombs outlined in the book, that the author and publishers could be arrested for conspiracy to commit terrorism.
Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." God's own "don't be a dick" rule.

Lithp and Vene really need to have some kind of confusing sexual encounter where Vene spends the entire session lovingly insulting Lithp's technique, then cums on his face, ruffles his hair, says, "You're all right, kid!", and then punches him in the nuts.

Offline lighthorseman

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2012, 10:39:30 am »
Really? Are you really making this argument or are you so entrenched in playing devil's advocate that you can't see where the line of good, decent common sense gets drawn?

Children died. Children, let me highlight that for you, Died, and that too. Because of their advice children are dead.

At what point in time can anyone advocate that free speech becomes more important than a child's life?
Again, while I agree with what you're saying personally, I ask again, has it been proven that kids have died because of the Pearls? To the standards of a court?

Yeah, I think the Pearls are first order arseholes, but it is possible that the kids who died died because their parents were terrible. Maybe those kids would have died at their parent's hands anyway.

Let me try it another way... what if a fundie believed, just as firmly as you or I believe the Pearls are bad news, that homosexual parents lead to kids being killed. You think that fundie should be able to limit free speech relating to homosexual rights regarding parenting because of unproven belief?

Would the fundie be able to prove it in a court of law? Would they be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that homosexuality was why the child was killed? Not because of glaring neglect but because the parents thought that they some how had to sacrifice their kids to Jehovah or something to absolve themselves?

Prove that to me and we'll talk. Considering there are topics on this forum about how homosexuals might actually make better parents than the average straight couple I don't think you can do it and neither could they.

On the other hand, children died because of abuse. The abuse that was outlined by the Pearls. Their method of madness when dealing with children directly led to the deaths of children. That points to conspiracy to commit child abuse.

An example along a similar vein. My uncle used to own a book that taught you how to make bombs, ranging from the standard pipe bomb to a smoke bomb that allegedly could douse two city blocks in thick smoke. While the book didn't explicitly say to go out and use these for terrorist acts I have no doubt if a similar book were to be published today, and someone used the bombs outlined in the book, that the author and publishers could be arrested for conspiracy to commit terrorism.
Dude, thats entirely my point... the fundie can't prove that homosexual parents result in dead children, and neither you nor I have proved that the Pearls methods lead to dead children. If its been proven to court standard, OK, then maybe there's grounds, but unless I missed it, such a causal link hasn't been proven beyond the court of opinion of people like you and me.

Your sigline lauds science, but is there scientific evidence that the Pearls are actually responsible for any deaths? (not that I'm saying they're not, but that I don't like the idea of silencing people because we don't like what they say)

And for the record, I believe that how explosives and CBR weapons systems work should be freely available information.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 11:06:58 am by lighthorseman »
Let me make it real easy... if anyone is interested in my actual opinion, please ask, I'd love to talk to you. If you are interested in trying to catch me out in some sort of "gotcha, before you said 'many', but now you're saying 'lots', you totally shifted goal posts", then, I'm not playing.

Offline lighthorseman

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2012, 10:47:14 am »
By the way, How to Build a Nuclear Bomb freely available on Amazon.
Let me make it real easy... if anyone is interested in my actual opinion, please ask, I'd love to talk to you. If you are interested in trying to catch me out in some sort of "gotcha, before you said 'many', but now you're saying 'lots', you totally shifted goal posts", then, I'm not playing.

Offline rosenewock21

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2012, 11:09:18 am »
What part of advocating beating children flew over your head? Michael Pearl called it a "magic wand". He advocated not only beating the children but making them pick out their implement of torture, inflicting not only physical trauma but psychological as well.

Did you not watch the CNN video at the beginning of this thread? "Lydia was so severely beaten she died of a condition normally associated with earthquakes and bombings." When asked what would cause the Schatzs to beat, terrorize and torture their children Mike Ramsey, the district attorney of Butte County in northern California, had this to say.
Quote
The book by Mr. Pearl. There's no doubt about that.
There is causation that beating the child, in a manner advocate by Mr. Pearl, led to the child's death. I think I've just proven a link to any sane, rational human being on the planet.

No one has ever proven that homosexuality itself harms children.
Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." God's own "don't be a dick" rule.

Lithp and Vene really need to have some kind of confusing sexual encounter where Vene spends the entire session lovingly insulting Lithp's technique, then cums on his face, ruffles his hair, says, "You're all right, kid!", and then punches him in the nuts.

Offline Auri-El

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2012, 11:39:05 am »
I think the point is, plenty of parents use the Pearls' methods, and while I personally find it morally reprehensible to spank a child, it is within their legal right to do so. Plenty of parents use the Pearls' methods, plenty of parents spank their children. Relatively few beat their children to death. Those parents who do, probably would have anyway, regardless of who told them it was okay to spank. The Pearls may be total assholes, but legally they aren't responsible for a few people taking what they say too far.

Offline lighthorseman

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2012, 05:12:25 pm »
 What part of "prove it" flew over yours?

Had a real "wit of the stairs" moment after l logged out last night, who do you think is responsible for more deaths, the Pearls or Jenny McCartney? Yet l don't see many people seeking to curtail her freedom of speech.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 05:14:39 pm by lighthorseman »
Let me make it real easy... if anyone is interested in my actual opinion, please ask, I'd love to talk to you. If you are interested in trying to catch me out in some sort of "gotcha, before you said 'many', but now you're saying 'lots', you totally shifted goal posts", then, I'm not playing.

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2012, 05:34:49 pm »
What part of "prove it" flew over yours?

Had a real "wit of the stairs" moment after l logged out last night, who do you think is responsible for more deaths, the Pearls or Jenny McCartney? Yet l don't see many people seeking to curtail her freedom of speech.

In America it's not a crime to refuse to vaccinate your child. Some states even offer religious or philosophical exemption forms for kids attending school.

Beating children to death, on the other hand, is a crime.
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Offline lighthorseman

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2012, 06:03:37 pm »
I contend that Pearl and eMcCartney are equally at fault in the deaths they cause through their speech, but neither actually advocate yhe killing of children. You may wish to wax semantic about the legalities involved in vaccination, but l contend that the causal link between death and avoidable childhood illness is more firmly established then that between constructive discipline and death. Again hate the Pearls, despise their philosophy, but freedom of speech, l don't believe that anything the Pearls say can be proven to warrant, censorship, no matter our personal ferlings on the matter.
Let me make it real easy... if anyone is interested in my actual opinion, please ask, I'd love to talk to you. If you are interested in trying to catch me out in some sort of "gotcha, before you said 'many', but now you're saying 'lots', you totally shifted goal posts", then, I'm not playing.

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2012, 06:15:55 pm »
I contend that Pearl and eMcCartney are equally at fault in the deaths they cause through their speech, but neither actually advocate yhe killing of children. You may wish to wax semantic about the legalities involved in vaccination, but l contend that the causal link between death and avoidable childhood illness is more firmly established then that between constructive discipline and death. Again hate the Pearls, despise their philosophy, but freedom of speech, l don't believe that anything the Pearls say can be proven to warrant, censorship, no matter our personal ferlings on the matter.

The only reason I agree with the highlighted part is because it's easier for law enforcement to track down violent material if it's out in the open. Censoring it would simply drive the sale of these books underground but wouldn't stop the determined people (the ones who REALLY want to beat their kids) from buying them.

There is a firmly established link between corporal punishment towards children and psychological problems later in life. http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
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There are very few problems that cannot be solved with a good taint punching.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2012, 06:30:08 pm »
What part of advocating beating children flew over your head? Michael Pearl called it a "magic wand". He advocated not only beating the children but making them pick out their implement of torture, inflicting not only physical trauma but psychological as well.

Did you not watch the CNN video at the beginning of this thread? "Lydia was so severely beaten she died of a condition normally associated with earthquakes and bombings." When asked what would cause the Schatzs to beat, terrorize and torture their children Mike Ramsey, the district attorney of Butte County in northern California, had this to say.
Quote
The book by Mr. Pearl. There's no doubt about that.
There is causation that beating the child, in a manner advocate by Mr. Pearl, led to the child's death. I think I've just proven a link to any sane, rational human being on the planet.
The Pearls have sold hundreds of thousands of copies of their book. There's been only a handful of deaths caused by people who read those books, as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong).

People who buy and follow the advice of the Pearls are likely to already be people who would resort to beating their children as punishment.  Children being beaten to death happened before the Pearls published their book. Presumably some would still have happened regardless of the book being published. And they would have happened to people who are likely to beat their children, obviously, which are the Pearl's audience. So, it's perfectly possible that in a hypothetical universe where the Pearls never published their book, this same deaths happen to the same people, meaning that in fact the Pearls did not cause those deaths.

Now, this is only a sketch of an argument. I don't have the numbers of deaths due to corporal punishments before and after To Train up a Child was published, so it could be that the numbers increase substantially and only among Pearl readers. The point is that the information presented is not enough to establish a causal link between these deaths and the Pearls, so it's hasty at best to talk about removing their freedom of speech.

(The anti-vaccination movement causing deaths, by contrast, has been clearly established by comparing deaths due to preventable diseases now and before among populations with access to vaccines.)
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Offline Caitshidhe

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Re: Michael and Debi Pearl.
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2012, 06:36:24 pm »
Maybe all copies of the book should be published with a foreword about how following the discipline techniques described therein constitute child abuse in many jurisdictions and have been linked to several cases of beating deaths of children.

The book can stay in print, but has to acknowledge that following those guidelines is NOT a good idea. Kind of in the same way cigarettes are still sold but have to carry a warning about how smoking them for a long time can kill you.
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