On Forgiveness

[Captain Jack Harkness]

So I kinda recently ran into a aunt that really soured relationships with my dad, and it made me think about the concept of forgiveness.  If I knew she hadn't broken trust with my family, and if I knew she knew how, I'd be willing to forgive her.  Seeing her today was a bit awkward.

You know, society in general has a hard time forgiving people for things.  That got me thinking.  Is the reason that people in prison are mostly Christian is because many of them often desperately seek forgiveness, but have no way to find it inside their cell, so they turn to god?  It doesn't matter how religious they were before.  Are people "born again" in prison because most people aren't sociopaths and often feel like shit about the stuff that put them there in the first place?

I dunno.  What do you guys think about forgiveness?

[Witchyjoshy]

One thing I remember from my time as a Christian fundie is that forgiveness was always for the forgiver, not the forgiven.

That's a load of bullshit, even within the context of Christian fundamentalism.  Especially since they always expected people to forgive others without waiting for their apology (which always comes across as condescending as fuck to the 'forgiven') to show how 'loving' they are.  And yet God waits for your special apology before granting you his divine forgiveness.

HURK.

Anyways, my view on forgiveness is that it's always up to the person forgiving whether or not they should do it or not.  Never forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness.  And there are times forgiveness should be earned.

(That being said, I place more emphasis on apology than forgiveness than most other people.  Not that an apology itself can make everything right, but that apology is the first step to making things right, and skipping the apology makes people think that you don't regret your actions at all.)

I do have one hang up about forgiveness.  Namely actually using the word "forgive".  Because of my history, it has always come across as condescending to me to use that word in a sentence.  "I forgive you" just feels so...

(click to show/hide)

Which is why I tend to prefer other phrases like "It's all water under the bridge now", which indicates that the wrong has been washed away and is no longer of important.

There is one thing that is far more important than forgiveness, though, and something that doesn't require you forgiving someone, either.

Letting go of a grudge.  Sometimes, someone has wronged you and is unrepentant.  You can get yourself worked up into a tizzy about it, and I doubt anyone would blame you for it.

However, once you let go of that, and move past it, that person no longer has any power over you (unless you're in a situation where the person DOES have power over you, and that's not the time to worry about forgiving and letting go).  It's good for you to let go of things that bother you.

On the other hand, though, forgiving and letting go does not mean the same as "forgetting", and the phrase "forgive and forget" is annoying to me for that reason.  Letting go is allowing yourself to move on.  Forgiving someone is letting them know they can move on.  Forgetting is irresponsible and leads to both mistakes and being vulnerable to those mistakes again.

Never forget when someone has wronged you and how.  You can let go of the hatred, but always guard yourself.

...I think that turned into a sermon.  Sorry XD

[Meshakhad]

...I think that turned into a sermon.  Sorry XD

It did. And a damn fine sermon at that. Rework it a bit, then find some spiritual writing site to post it on.

[Witchyjoshy]

Fun fact, the local bishop of the Episcopalian church thought I should look into becoming a priest (which doesn't carry the celibacy sentence like it does for Catholics) because he liked me doing the reading on the same day I had my confirmation.

Obviously I didn't go that route but it was flattering nonetheless.

Ah, fond memories... I won't go back, but that doesn't mean I regret the time I spent as an Episcopalian.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

On the prison thing, traditionally there have been more chaplains than qualified therapists in prisons and I suspect plenty of convicts have a need for counselling.

A lot of them might have turned to the chaplain because there isn't anyone else to talk to. In the hyper-macho culture of prison getting things off your chest could be viewed as weakness. Most guards and other convicts probably make a point of appearing cold and uncaring as a defense posture.

I also suspect plenty of convicts have unresolved mental health issues and traumas, in a lot of cases the prison chaplain would be the only counselling there is.

[syaoranvee]

There's also the belief that inmates think that by becoming Christians they can get an early parole.

[wrightway]

...I think that turned into a sermon.  Sorry XD

It did. And a damn fine sermon at that. Rework it a bit, then find some spiritual writing site to post it on.

Hear hear! That was beautifully said.

[KZN02]

There's also the belief that inmates think that by becoming Christians they can get an early parole.

That puts a wrinkle about Christians making up most of the prison population.

[R. U. Sirius]

As someone who has spent time in prison, I can tell you that religions with large populations tend to fall into three categories, which I list here in rough order of proportion, at least from my own observations:

1) Those who use it as identification similar to gang affiliation
2) Those who hope for early parole
3) The sincere

In general, the first were the ones I saw who were most insistent on dogma and hostile to questions, while the sincere tended to be quiet and, if not loners, careful who they spent their time with. They also tended to be the most decent; some that I met were more decent than 90% of people I've met on the outside, of all persuasions. As MS touched on in his post, they also tended to be the ones who let go of slights and wrongdoing the easiest. I can't help thinking there's a causal link there, though it's probably in the form of a feedback loop...letting go of negative emotions fosters greater goodwill and serenity, which in turn makes it easier to let go of negative emotions, and on and on.

[RavynousHunter]

I'm one of those guys who will forgive most things fairly easily; it may take me a while, we all need time to calm down and cool off sometimes, but I nearly always come 'round to it.  Life's too short to hold a grudge...unless its for a DAMN good reason.  That said, yes, I have lines that, once crossed, can't be forgiven.  Things I'll never forget, and never forgive...keeping an active, hidden camera in your bathroom when you've got guests of the female persuasion (my granddad), bold-facedly LYING to my best friend when said friend's fucking MOTHER had just died and needed me and my family (my eldest cousin), or knowingly infecting both wife and child with not just one, but MULTIPLE social diseases; diseases you've never mentioned and never do because it tarnishes your fucking pathetic self-image...also my eldest cousin.

Of all the people I will NEVER forgive, I will never consider a part of my life, let alone part of my family, my eldest cousin is the worst of them all.  I hate him, pure and simple.  I want his life to be short, lonely, and incredibly fucking painful.  I don't deal with motherfucking injustices of -that- fucking magnitude.  He's lucky I'm almost always in a decent mood when he shows up while I'm at granny's house (he lives on her land), because if I weren't, I'd happily end him.  His actions see next to NO fucking punishment, and that just makes it worse.  Granny treats him like the sun shines out the crack of his crusty, disease-riddled ass.  I just want him punished, and if I'm the one that gets to do it, that's just icing on the fuckin cake.

Many, many things, I am willing to forgive, but I do have principles.  I do have lines you do not cross unless you want me as your enemy.  I do not tolerate evil, I do not willingly associate with it, and if I get the opportunity, I stamp it the fuck out in whatever manner is most fitting while remaining within the realms of legality.  Though, that the law protects deplorable people like Fred Phelps from the vicious reprisal they so richly deserve leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

[Søren]

Depends on who wronged me and why. Most of the people I know dont give a shit if I forgive them or not. So it doesnt really matter, and I dont give a fuck if people forgive me.

Way I see it, if that person isnt going to be in my social life for a long time, or has no leverage, or I dont like them. Then theres no reason why I should forgive them and or have them forgive me.

[guizonde]

(warning, tl; dr'd thread)

when it comes down to forgiveness, i try and be the most magnanimous possible due to my personnal convictions. i also have quite a bit of a temperament, so i've imposed through sheer willpower a cooldown before judging someone's actions. it all boils down to: "am i less mad now? if yes, weigh pros and cons of the actions that made me see red. if not, i probably shouldn't forgive yet".

i try to gather the most information possible before making up my mind. once i've exhausted all other possibilities will i judge. as a rule of thumb, if it goes against my principles i'll try and see the offender's point of view and principles. i learned my girlfriend is in the military, something she hid from me due to my ardent pacifism. i was mad, until i reasoned that whether i like it or not, we still have a need for the military. she knows i'll be worried for her, and that i can't condone her actions, but i forgave her not telling me because hey. i'm not gonna dictate her life. she likes most of her job (except being treated like shit by the higher-ups), and all i can say is one day i'll hope she'll be honorably discharged because we won't need soldiers anymore.

on the other hand, some things are unforgivable. beating your kids, treating other human beings like shit, homophobia, misogyny, misandry, racism... those things foster hatred, and i cannot and will not forgive. if applicable, i'll try and settle it in the most civil manner possible, up to and including appealing to the authorities. some things should never be tolerated, especially when it concerns generating violence in any form.