French teenager's skirt too long for school

[ironbite]

Know what I love?  And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.

This thread?  This isn't about religious garb.  It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.

Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.

[MadCatTLX]

We know it's really cause you French are all a bunch of snobby fashion police and religious garb is so last season.

[Sigmaleph]

Know what I love?  And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.

This thread?  This isn't about religious garb.  It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.

Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.

Almost as if threads had a tendency to veer off-topic in this forum.

[guizonde]

Know what I love?  And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.

This thread?  This isn't about religious garb.  It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.

Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.

i hate to repeat myself but i do find this stupid, seeing as how there are tons of skirts like this (including one in my wardrobe for the winter).

@mellen, i wouldn't call myself sane, but thank you very much for your praise.

@madcat: i'm with you on that one. can't even find cargo pants anymore. it's all about the indecently skinny jeans.

[RavynousHunter]

Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours?  Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.

[mellenORL]

Know what I love?  And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.

This thread?  This isn't about religious garb.  It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.

Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.

i hate to repeat myself but i do find this stupid, seeing as how there are tons of skirts like this (including one in my wardrobe for the winter).

@mellen, i wouldn't call myself sane, but thank you very much for your praise.

@madcat: i'm with you on that one. can't even find cargo pants anymore. it's all about the indecently skinny jeans.

Yet we all, including myself and guizonde, know perfectly well that French law is being applied against this girl because her long skirt is garbing a Muslim. This would not have happened against a French girl who is Catholic, for example. Her headscarf is her primary emblazoning - her Scarlet Letter - of herself as an outlaw (?). Nobody commenting in this thread has missed a cue or a clue as to that. France is wrong, guizonde acknowledges. I acknowledge. We all acknowledge that. Yet guizonde is wisely and carefully explaining the historical and socio-political "why", and not actually trying to exonerate it in this case.

However, the very well-intentioned point behind these laws in France is this; The Rights of a Human Being, the Inherent Nature of Human Dignity (all from the well-understood Modern Western Civilization concepts - which are highly valuable concepts!) trump all religious requirements of dress and behavior specific to the tenets of any religion, regardless whether they are voluntarily and enthusiastically adhered to by individuals.

The government of France is robustly enforcing a primary law of separation of religion from State at and to the point of individual PUBLIC DISPLAY. Is this wise? Is this just? As an atheist and an American, I say no, because constriction will only reinforce zealotry, at worst, and conformism for it's own sake, at middle, and intolerance by non-adherents of the religion in all cases. The law as written and enforced does not solve anything, but it does culturally and religiously oppress, and escalates tensions between secular and religious groups and subgroups of people who encounter each other in daily life.

[RavynousHunter]

The government of France is robustly enforcing a primary law of separation of religion from State at and to the point of individual PUBLIC DISPLAY. Is this wise? Is this just? As an atheist and an American, I say no, because constriction will only reinforce zealotry, at worst, and conformism for it's own sake, at middle, and intolerance by non-adherents of the religion in all cases. The law as written and enforced does not solve anything, but it does culturally and religiously oppress, and escalates tensions between secular and religious groups and subgroups of people who encounter each other in daily life.

There is not a like button big enough for this.  Seriously, god damn.

[Mechtaur]

Know what I love?  And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.

This thread?  This isn't about religious garb.  It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.

Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.

i hate to repeat myself but i do find this stupid, seeing as how there are tons of skirts like this (including one in my wardrobe for the winter).

@mellen, i wouldn't call myself sane, but thank you very much for your praise.

@madcat: i'm with you on that one. can't even find cargo pants anymore. it's all about the indecently skinny jeans.

Yet we all, including myself and guizonde, know perfectly well that French law is being applied against this girl because her long skirt is garbing a Muslim. This would not have happened against a French girl who is Catholic, for example. Her headscarf is her primary emblazoning - her Scarlet Letter - of herself as an outlaw (?). Nobody commenting in this thread has missed a cue or a clue as to that. France is wrong, guizonde acknowledges. I acknowledge. We all acknowledge that. Yet guizonde is wisely and carefully explaining the historical and socio-political "why", and not actually trying to exonerate it in this case.

However, the very well-intentioned point behind these laws in France is this; The Rights of a Human Being, the Inherent Nature of Human Dignity (all from the well-understood Modern Western Civilization concepts - which are highly valuable concepts!) trump all religious requirements of dress and behavior specific to the tenets of any religion, regardless whether they are voluntarily and enthusiastically adhered to by individuals.

The government of France is robustly enforcing a primary law of separation of religion from State at and to the point of individual PUBLIC DISPLAY. Is this wise? Is this just? As an atheist and an American, I say no, because constriction will only reinforce zealotry, at worst, and conformism for it's own sake, at middle, and intolerance by non-adherents of the religion in all cases. The law as written and enforced does not solve anything, but it does culturally and religiously oppress, and escalates tensions between secular and religious groups and subgroups of people who encounter each other in daily life.

Damn, for this post I owe you a beverage of choice.

I wasn't meaning to be hostile sounding to guizonde, but this is seriously oppressing people just so someone else doesn't feel uncomfortable. I can't bring myself to want to be understanding and tolerant of it.

[guizonde]

Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours?  Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.

yeah, they are for when i drift off into sarcasm. since originally posting in this thread, i've been walking on eggshells trying not to generate a shitstorm, and when under pressure i crack jokes to alleve the pressure. if it feels out of place it's because i'm trying to make it out of place differentiating between serious and joking.

@mellen: it would've been a boring thread if i just left it at "france is islamophobic". it is, but it's not the be all end all reason for what's happening.

@mechtaur: the french would argue that religion is oppressing people, it goes both ways.

[Mechtaur]

Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours?  Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.

yeah, they are for when i drift off into sarcasm. since originally posting in this thread, i've been walking on eggshells trying not to generate a shitstorm, and when under pressure i crack jokes to alleve the pressure. if it feels out of place it's because i'm trying to make it out of place differentiating between serious and joking.

@mellen: it would've been a boring thread if i just left it at "france is islamophobic". it is, but it's not the be all end all reason for what's happening.

@mechtaur: the french would argue that religion is oppressing people, it goes both ways.

I would have to agree to a certain point, but if the girl is following it of her own free will, they have no right to force her to change simply because someone else doesn't like it. Otherwise what is stopping them from banning non-religious articles of clothing for similar frivolous reasons?

[Ultimate Paragon]

Guiz, are the blue parts of your posts...ya know, yours?  Just curious, because it seems weird and outta place.

yeah, they are for when i drift off into sarcasm. since originally posting in this thread, i've been walking on eggshells trying not to generate a shitstorm, and when under pressure i crack jokes to alleve the pressure. if it feels out of place it's because i'm trying to make it out of place differentiating between serious and joking.

@mellen: it would've been a boring thread if i just left it at "france is islamophobic". it is, but it's not the be all end all reason for what's happening.

@mechtaur: the french would argue that religion is oppressing people, it goes both ways.

I would have to agree to a certain point, but if the girl is following it of her own free will, they have no right to force her to change simply because someone else doesn't like it. Otherwise what is stopping them from banning non-religious articles of clothing for similar frivolous reasons?

Ironically, it's the same basic principle that leads religious fanatics to call for things they don't like to be banned.

[ironbite]

Know what I love?  And you'll all get the kick out of this because it's great.

This thread?  This isn't about religious garb.  It's about a teenager being told her skirt, of which is very modest and not in any way shape or form religious, is too religious for this school.

Ironbite-and all of you keep going for the anti-hijab laws.

Almost as if threads had a tendency to veer off-topic in this forum.

This isntbveering off topic.  This is going to a new, unrelated topic

[Rime]

I recently found out that a hijab isn't a "lust prevention measure" although it is a popular idea with many Middle Eastern men.  It's meant to be a gesture to say that a woman is as sacred as a tabernacle because she can contain another soul.  Even if I don't believe that we have souls, I could respect that reason.   I have to resist the urge to strangle insecure men with their precious "lust prevention implement" if they think it is in any way, shape or form effective.  Even a niquab could be dangerous because some guys have a fetish for doe eyes and that would draw attention to that feature.  I know I'm a bit soft for Bambi-eyed females.

And I'd like to say that I don't find anything wrong with her skirt or her scarf.  Maybe it's because headscarves and ankle length skirts would be all the rage next year and they were jealous.

[LeTipex]

I feel obligated to respong to all this, being another frenchman and all.

On the original topic of the thread : yikes. Banning a skirt for being too long (and vaguely reminiscent of religious garb) was stupid and offensive. I facepalmed the fist time I got in contact with that story.

On the topic drift : well, yeah, France does have a tradition of being agressively non-religious, as far as our institutions are concerned. As someone who is pretty anti-religion myself (or at least, who feels that religious fee-fees have no fucking place in public discourse when talking about the way the country is run) I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing. The kicker is that the way anti-religious laws are usually enforced ends up pushing even harder against opressed groups, which is pretty shitty.

I'm seriously torn up on the issue.

PS : Also, to clarify, you totally can wear religious garb out in public. That's not against the law. You are not allowed, however, to wear a kippa or a hijab or a tshirt with a cross when in a governement-funded place. That goes for schools, mairies, government buildings, army barracks, etc. By all means, wear everything you want when going out for a coffee.

[Rime]

PS : Also, to clarify, you totally can wear religious garb out in public. That's not against the law. You are not allowed, however, to wear a kippa or a hijab or a tshirt with a cross when in a governement-funded place. That goes for schools, mairies, government buildings, army barracks, etc. By all means, wear everything you want when going out for a coffee.

When you put it this way, the law makes more sense.  On the other hand, Canada tends to be a little more slack on this level of secularism because religion it is a part of culture, and the level of integration tends to be more of a success if you don't just "throw them in the melting pot."