Author Topic: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again  (Read 24437 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2016, 02:32:48 pm »
When the politics are in the book itself, it can be judged based on them.  However, authors simply holding certain beliefs is no reason to mark down their books.  Would you give Apocalypto a bad review because of Mel Gibson's anti-Semitism?

...So now that we have almost gotten an answer out of you: seeing as the Puppies are an ideological organization that only votes on books based on the politics of the author and whether or not they suit the Puppies, how can you defend them? Furthermore, before you go with "but the other side is also doing it" can you prove that there was a progressive conspiracy that targeted authors purely based on their politics and not based on what they wrote? Specifically, can you even prove that writers who did not in any way put their own ideologies into their books suffered BEFORE the Puppies began the organized voting?

Somebody already proved the ideological biases using math:

https://madgeniusclub.com/2014/08/25/a-very-surprised-looking-sperm-whale-and-a-bowl-of-petunias/

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8358
  • Gender: Male
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2016, 02:59:01 pm »
When the politics are in the book itself, it can be judged based on them.  However, authors simply holding certain beliefs is no reason to mark down their books.  Would you give Apocalypto a bad review because of Mel Gibson's anti-Semitism?

...So now that we have almost gotten an answer out of you: seeing as the Puppies are an ideological organization that only votes on books based on the politics of the author and whether or not they suit the Puppies, how can you defend them? Furthermore, before you go with "but the other side is also doing it" can you prove that there was a progressive conspiracy that targeted authors purely based on their politics and not based on what they wrote? Specifically, can you even prove that writers who did not in any way put their own ideologies into their books suffered BEFORE the Puppies began the organized voting?

Somebody already proved the ideological biases using math:

https://madgeniusclub.com/2014/08/25/a-very-surprised-looking-sperm-whale-and-a-bowl-of-petunias/

a) You are again missing the point.

b) That dude writes like someone who deserves to get punched in their whore mouth. The arrogance that comes from his "I am SOOO much smarter than everyone else and I only recently realized how fucking stupid other people are since they don't even count mathematical odds in their heads all day." That is not how you make an argument in a debate. That's just showing off and if you really want to make someone see things your way you should not insult them with every other word. (But this is something that I've also said about SJWs.)

c) I did not ask you to prove that the ideology of the writers does not matter to the voters. I have asked you to prove that the people were voting ONLY based on the ideology of the writer even if it did not show in the book. When you read something like to Sword of truth the ideology is very much present in the books and sometimes it seems that the books only exist to be writer tracts, to show how objectivism is the one true path and how people who do not support killing unarmed civilians are evil and must be killed before they destroy the nation.

d) This dude doesn't actually understand how probabilities work:
Quote
What LUCK the reds have! Still, that’ll be much less for them in future. After all out of every 100 noms they should get 15. And they’ve already had 3. And the other two balls are more-or-less white. No blacks.

So we go on to 2006. And lo. There are 3 more red balls… and two whites, and no blacks. Miracle of miracles because everybody knows there is no ideological bias in Hugo awards. And the old man says: “Well son. Two years in a row! It’ll be your great-great-grandsons’s time before that happens again two years in a row!”

He thinks that the previous results will affect the future results. For all his talk about math he suddenly seems to think that luck is a thing that exists and that it can be "used up." If I toss a coin 50 times in a row then, yes getting it heads up everytime is really improbable BUT if I have tossed it 49 times and gotten heads 49 times what are the odds of getting heads on my next toss? If you think that the answer is anything other than 50% then you don't know how probabilities work.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8358
  • Gender: Male
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2016, 02:59:35 pm »
Didya hafta Askold?

Now we can expect a tsunami of unread links and MS paint that borks the tables on the page with no spoiler tags.

And also no real answer to your question!
Sorry, looks like you were right.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2016, 04:08:59 pm »
b) That dude writes like someone who deserves to get punched in their whore mouth. The arrogance that comes from his "I am SOOO much smarter than everyone else and I only recently realized how fucking stupid other people are since they don't even count mathematical odds in their heads all day." That is not how you make an argument in a debate. That's just showing off and if you really want to make someone see things your way you should not insult them with every other word. (But this is something that I've also said about SJWs.)

He's egotistical and tactless, I'll agree with you there.  But that doesn't make him wrong.

c) I did not ask you to prove that the ideology of the writers does not matter to the voters. I have asked you to prove that the people were voting ONLY based on the ideology of the writer even if it did not show in the book. When you read something like to Sword of truth the ideology is very much present in the books and sometimes it seems that the books only exist to be writer tracts, to show how objectivism is the one true path and how people who do not support killing unarmed civilians are evil and must be killed before they destroy the nation.

I don't think that kind of thing can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.  What can be proven, however, is that the author's political views are given far more weight than they should be.  Do you honestly think those results are just coincidence?

d) This dude doesn't actually understand how probabilities work:
Quote
What LUCK the reds have! Still, that’ll be much less for them in future. After all out of every 100 noms they should get 15. And they’ve already had 3. And the other two balls are more-or-less white. No blacks.

So we go on to 2006. And lo. There are 3 more red balls… and two whites, and no blacks. Miracle of miracles because everybody knows there is no ideological bias in Hugo awards. And the old man says: “Well son. Two years in a row! It’ll be your great-great-grandsons’s time before that happens again two years in a row!”

He thinks that the previous results will affect the future results. For all his talk about math he suddenly seems to think that luck is a thing that exists and that it can be "used up." If I toss a coin 50 times in a row then, yes getting it heads up everytime is really improbable BUT if I have tossed it 49 times and gotten heads 49 times what are the odds of getting heads on my next toss? If you think that the answer is anything other than 50% then you don't know how probabilities work.

Good catch, I missed that one.  Nevertheless, the implausibility of this happening again and again remains.

Offline Ironchew

  • Official Edgelord
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1888
  • Gender: Male
  • The calm, intellectual Trotsky-like Trotskyist
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2016, 04:58:50 pm »
It must be awful easy for UP to just sit there and disrupt a discussion by going "Nuh-uh" over and over again.

It's plainly obvious disruption is the only strategy he has; all it does is make him look slimy as he stands closer and closer to his alt-right buddies.
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline The_Queen

  • Royalty & Royalty-free
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1840
  • Gender: Female
  • And here we go...
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2016, 05:31:46 pm »
It must be awful easy for UP to just sit there and disrupt a discussion by going "Nuh-uh" over and over again.

It's plainly obvious disruption is the only strategy he has; all it does is make him look slimy as he stands closer and closer to his alt-right buddies.

I'd rather him stand by his alt-right buddies than beside any child. Especially one in the range of 7-9 years old.
Does anyone take Donald Trump seriously, anymore?

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2016, 05:48:58 pm »
Hey now.  Lets keep that sorta stuff where it belongs.

Ironbite-not on this board.

Offline niam2023

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 4213
  • Gender: Male
  • The Forum Chad
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2016, 06:09:40 pm »
Ultie's already basically breaking the rules against talking about That outside F&B.

Just like how he breaks the law about those kinds of pictures of children.
Living Life, Lifting, Waiting for Summer

Offline Canadian Mojo

  • Don't Steal Him. We Need Him. He Makes Us Cool!
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Gender: Male
  • Υπό σκιή
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2016, 07:12:49 pm »
UP can you point to an award that was given out where it can be objectively proven that it should have gone to someone else?

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2016, 07:19:48 pm »
UP can you point to an award that was given out where it can be objectively proven that it should have gone to someone else?

You're missing the point.  The fact that right-wing authors have consistently been the big losers for so long says something's rotten.

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2016, 07:23:09 pm »
*munches popcorn*

Ironbite-fascinating.

Offline Eiki-mun

  • der Löwe aus Mitternacht
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Gender: Male
  • On the fields of Breitenfeld.
    • Main Personal Blog
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2016, 07:26:58 pm »
UP can you point to an award that was given out where it can be objectively proven that it should have gone to someone else?

You're missing the point.  The fact that right-wing authors have consistently been the big losers for so long says something's rotten.

Not really. In fact, it could say any number of things. Like that most sci-fi readers tend to lean to the left, and they tend to enjoy left-leaning books because of that (and before you say anything, it's impossible to completely write bias out of your book. It will be there). Or perhaps it says that Having left-wing leanings tends to correlate with being a better writer. Or any number of other possibilities.

Personally, I'm going with the theory that science fiction is naturally biased towards the left wing, because the right wing is so thoroughly and virulently anti-science. Sure, I have no conclusive evidence, but then, neither do you.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2016, 07:37:53 pm »
UP can you point to an award that was given out where it can be objectively proven that it should have gone to someone else?

You're missing the point.  The fact that right-wing authors have consistently been the big losers for so long says something's rotten.

Not really. In fact, it could say any number of things. Like that most sci-fi readers tend to lean to the left, and they tend to enjoy left-leaning books because of that (and before you say anything, it's impossible to completely write bias out of your book. It will be there). Or perhaps it says that Having left-wing leanings tends to correlate with being a better writer. Or any number of other possibilities.

Personally, I'm going with the theory that science fiction is naturally biased towards the left wing, because the right wing is so thoroughly and virulently anti-science. Sure, I have no conclusive evidence, but then, neither do you.

If that's the case, then how do you explain the No Award votes?

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3716
  • Have you got thumbs? SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING THUMBS!
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2016, 07:50:34 pm »
UP, for a guy who loves his scarecrow pics you've missed a huge detail in this guys argument. Here, I'll help.

Quote
‘There is no ideological bias in Hugo awards,’

The thing is, the Sad and Rabid puppies detractors never argued that.

What Correia argued was this:

Quote
“The ugly truth is that the most prestigious award in sci-fi/fantasy is basically just a popularity contest, where the people who are popular with a tiny little group of WorldCon voters get nominated and thousands of other works are ignored. Books that tickle them are declared good and anybody who publically deviates from groupthink is bad. Over time this lame ass award process has become increasingly snooty and pretentious…

That's the argument, that there is a tiny little group of WorldCon voters who vote out pulp and vote in lefty stuff he doesn't like. An argument that has never been based on anything but hearsay.

Arguing that this argument is based on thin air =/= arguing that ‘There is no ideological bias in Hugo awards,’ thereby converting the rest of Davefreer's rant to a festering pile entirely composed of decaying dingo bollocks.

Offline Svata

  • Doesn't even fucking know anymore
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 1542
  • Gender: Male
  • No, seriously, fuck astrology.
Re: The alt-right is shitting up the Hugo slates again
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2016, 07:52:25 pm »
UP can you point to an award that was given out where it can be objectively proven that it should have gone to someone else?

You're missing the point.  The fact that right-wing authors have consistently been the big losers for so long says something's rotten.

Not really. In fact, it could say any number of things. Like that most sci-fi readers tend to lean to the left, and they tend to enjoy left-leaning books because of that (and before you say anything, it's impossible to completely write bias out of your book. It will be there). Or perhaps it says that Having left-wing leanings tends to correlate with being a better writer. Or any number of other possibilities.

Personally, I'm going with the theory that science fiction is naturally biased towards the left wing, because the right wing is so thoroughly and virulently anti-science. Sure, I have no conclusive evidence, but then, neither do you.

If that's the case, then how do you explain the No Award votes?

Voters thinking, "all these books are shit. I don't think any of them deserve an award." That's how.
"Politician" is the occupational equivalent of "Florida".