FSTDT Forums
Community => Religion and Philosophy => Topic started by: gyeonghwa on January 06, 2012, 02:22:57 pm
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Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/alabama-man-arrested-in-fire-at-florida-abortion-clinic-that-has-weathered-decades-of-violence/2012/01/05/gIQAC8TxcP_story.html)
Authorities say the man charged with setting fire to a Florida Panhandle abortion clinic long targeted by violence told investigators he was motivated by his hatred for abortion.
In an affidavit released late Thursday, prosecutors said 41-year-old Bobby Joe Rogers told investigators that he made a fire bomb and threw it at the Pensacola clinic early Sunday.
Rogers said he was pushed to action after he saw a young woman enter the clinic for an abortion while he was standing outside the clinic with a group of protesters recently.
The dailykos takes pro-lifers to the task (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/05/1051978/-Another-day,-another-pro-life-terrorist-bombs-an-abortion-clinic):
It's almost hard to get worked up about stories like this, when they're so damned common. Bombs thrown, buildings burned, car tires slashed, patients stalked, doctors assassinated ... You can look at the statistics. You can read about the thousands of acts of violence and tens of thousands of acts of "non-violent" terrorism against health care providers and their staff and their patients and their landlords and their landlords' children. It's all part of the "pro-life" movement to save the fetuses. And hey, if some property, or some people, have to get hurt, well, that's a fair price to pay.
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No discussion of this topic would be complete without pointing out that the perpetrators of 'pro-life' violence and seemingly all the most vocally and virulently opposed (or at least, the most public AND most politically powerful) to abortion tend to overwhelmingly be people upon whom an abortion cannot be performed.
Far be it from me to say someone can't have a vote or a voice in whatever issues they attach themselves to, it seems a little bit sideways to me to allow people to make laws regulating and enforce prohibition against something they are by definition incapable of directly experiencing the repercussions to. A man will have--and is by all means allowed to have--whatever feelings he likes regarding his wife or girlfriend's (or anyone else he's close to) abortion, but ultimately it's the woman who goes under the knife and bears the brunt of the consequences.
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Weird...I was just reminiscing over my uncle's stupidity on this very topic. Got into it with him during our Christmas visit...couldn't help it, he just outright said that girls under 18 shouldn't be allowed to have Plan B (or as he called it, "that damn abortion pill") and that no woman should ever have an abortion unless the pregnancy's a product of rape or incest.
Which reminds me-- WHY is incest always referred to separately from rape? If your dad rapes you, that's rape, right? So why call it incest?
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It's almost hard to get worked up about stories like this, when they're so damned common. Bombs thrown, buildings burned, car tires slashed, patients stalked, doctors assassinated ... You can look at the statistics. You can read about the thousands of acts of violence and tens of thousands of acts of "non-violent" terrorism against health care providers and their staff and their patients and their landlords and their landlords' children. It's all part of the "pro-life" movement to save the fetuses. And hey, if some property, or some people, have to get hurt, well, that's a fair price to pay.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_drinPeejHuE/S0dYSsCmWGI/AAAAAAAAABI/qvt90LsE8uM/s320/pro-life-cartoon.gif)
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Which reminds me-- WHY is incest always referred to separately from rape? If your dad rapes you, that's rape, right? So why call it incest?
You know, I never noticed this before but since you said this and I spared it a few minutes of thought, it does seem to be the case. I can't think why, when the two are meant in the same context and definition of non-consensual sex, they're mentioned separately. I mean, not all rape is incest and not all incest is rape, but when rape happens to be incestuous, why make a distinction at all? The only thing I can think of is that perhaps they go hand-in-hand because when legally persecuted in most (or maybe just certain) jurisdictions, they fall under the same laws or statutes. Other than that and both being inherently sexually squicky, I can't think of another reason.
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There are some folks who need to have an abortion...
... and some who need to do so retroactively.
Bobby Joe Rogers' mother comes to mind.
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Why do I have a feeling that the reason they distinguish between rape and incest is that later on they can restrict it to just incest because flipper babies?
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I'll be uncharacteristically optimistic here and hope it's just done for the purpose of making one act punishable under two or more different laws, thus allowing for a harsher sentence.
Please let that be the case...
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Weird...I was just reminiscing over my uncle's stupidity on this very topic. Got into it with him during our Christmas visit...couldn't help it, he just outright said that girls under 18 shouldn't be allowed to have Plan B (or as he called it, "that damn abortion pill") and that no woman should ever have an abortion unless the pregnancy's a product of rape or incest.
Which reminds me-- WHY is incest always referred to separately from rape? If your dad rapes you, that's rape, right? So why call it incest?
Because the fact that it is also incestuous adds another level of psychological trauma, on top of the rape-trauma. You're supposed to be able to trust your family members, even when you can't trust anyone else. Rape is about the most serious breach of trust there is.
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I think there's more to it than just that. Many conservative Christians seem to view their children as their property. As such they don't see how a parent could rape their child, as it's "their own flesh and blood". Even if they would realise it's still rape when confronted on it they still think of it as an entirely different kettle of fish. It's sickening, but I have encountered people who feel that way.
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Oh, you're using that definition of incest. I thought it was taboo since the offspring had a chance of getting too many recessive genes, although I don't know exactly how harmful this is, and how harmful it is compared to other ways, such as an old woman having children.
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No discussion of this topic would be complete without pointing out that the perpetrators of 'pro-life' violence and seemingly all the most vocally and virulently opposed (or at least, the most public AND most politically powerful) to abortion tend to overwhelmingly be people upon whom an abortion cannot be performed.
I disagree with this, there are a number of anti-abortion females. As far as specific examples, Sarah Palin & Michelle Bachman come to mind. And there was that website Vene posted way back when, "The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion." Essentially, sensitivity to abortion rights appears to be independent of your potential to abort.
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Klan Parenthood, one of the most virulent anti-choice sites on the web, actually lists the abortion clinics in every state, calling them "death camps." http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/ (http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/)
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Weird...I was just reminiscing over my uncle's stupidity on this very topic. Got into it with him during our Christmas visit...couldn't help it, he just outright said that girls under 18 shouldn't be allowed to have Plan B (or as he called it, "that damn abortion pill") and that no woman should ever have an abortion unless the pregnancy's a product of rape or incest.
Which reminds me-- WHY is incest always referred to separately from rape? If your dad rapes you, that's rape, right? So why call it incest?
Because the fact that it is also incestuous adds another level of psychological trauma, on top of the rape-trauma. You're supposed to be able to trust your family members, even when you can't trust anyone else. Rape is about the most serious breach of trust there is.
That makes some sense, I suppose; emotionally, I don't have much experience in "family can and should be trusted over anyone else", but I do know that I should've been able to trust my family and feel secure with them.
...but it still seems like a strange thing to say, though. Rape is rape is rape; it being incestuous rape would be one more horrible thing, but it's still rape, and if you're going to say "it's only okay if it was rape or incest" why are you even thinking about people raping their relatives as opposed to it being a family friend, a stranger, etc.? In other words, if you're going to be THAT specific, why not say "rape, incestuous rape, date rape, acquaintance rape, stranger rape, etc."?
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That actually might be a good idea, considering the phrase is frequently involved in questioning how a proposed abortion legislation is supposed to work.
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Klan Parenthood, one of the most virulent anti-choice sites on the web, actually lists the abortion clinics in every state, calling them "death camps." http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/ (http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/)
considering who one of their heroes is...I find that funny.
Ironbite-and now I weep.
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I really think that when people like this attack planned parenthood clinics, they really need to be dragged off to an orphanage and say they are only allowed to protest when there are no more children there left to adopt. Also, each protester must adopt at least one child.
Although when I say things like that, I just know that they will still be there picketing planned parenthood clinics, with their newly adopted child stuck in the car with all the windows closed, or alternatively forced to carry the protest signs or other such abuses. I just couldn't bring myself to curse those orphans with parents like the pro-life protestors.
Also, rape is an act of non-consensual sex. Incest can be rape, and most commonly is. However, not all cases of Incest are rape. It is possible for two directly related family member to have entirely consensual sex. If it results in a pregnancy abortion is often the best option because of the increase in genetic defects. Remember, in some states in America you can marry your first cousins.
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Sorry, I didn't mean that it's ONLY men who have loud, contrary opinions on the matter of abortion--just that, in my experience, the loudest ones with the most power tend to be men. (Even though I know that Palin and Bachmann are some of the most anti-choice people in the political realm at the moment and actually DO have uteruses.) I should have clarified that it was an opinion and based on personal experience. It's only because there are more men than women in positions of power on BOTH sides of the political spectrum that it seems like the majority of the most influential anti-choice voices belong to men.
Even so, I still believe that if men could get pregnant then abortion rights would be preserved in every written law since Hammurabi's Code.
What I find the most single-handedly infuriating about almost everyone on the anti-choice side is that they don't give a fuck about the 'defense of life' or caring for the innocent little babies. They're overwhelmingly (but not invariably) staunchly against social welfare programs and assistance that the mothers of unwanted children or the caretakers of orphans and foster kids desperately need. They're against healthcare, public assistance, food stamps, free childcare, and reduced/free education or job training for the mothers to pull them out of poverty. 'Pro-life until birth' was written as a satire but it sums up their ideology pretty well.
This comic (linked for size) (http://armzrace.com/cej/CannonFodder/cycle-of-pro-life.jpg) is relevant.
As is this picture, that I took about two years ago in a client's house (I had a dog-walking/pet-sitting business). It was attached to a plastic baby bottle full of change and the tag attached was from a local anti-abortion organization begging for donations. The tag listed the things you could 'provide' for unplanned children and/or their mothers with comparatively small amounts of change.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/punchbug/0717001617b.jpg)
It's hard to read, but it says that for $25 you could provide two weeks worth of formula; $35, three weeks worth of diapers; $60 a car seat; $150, a crib; $200, a nice guilt-inducing ultrasound. At the bottom it says, 'ONE LIFE SAVED: PRICELESS'. Never mind that none of these donations are good for more than a few weeks or a few months at a time. A child grows out of a car seat and it won't do you any good if you haven't got a car anyway. A crib, similarly, is outgrown, and a whopping $200 for an ultrasound that will no doubt be used to fill the poor girl with insurmountable guilt does NOTHING AT ALL to help feed, clothe, or shelter the resulting infant or do anything to help the mother provide for herself or her child.
This made me so furious that I counted the change and donated double to Planned Parenthood.
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As is this picture, that I took about two years ago in a client's house (I had a dog-walking/pet-sitting business). It was attached to a plastic baby bottle full of change and the tag attached was from a local anti-abortion organization begging for donations. The tag listed the things you could 'provide' for unplanned children and/or their mothers with comparatively small amounts of change.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/punchbug/0717001617b.jpg)
It's hard to read, but it says that for $25 you could provide two weeks worth of formula; $35, three weeks worth of diapers; $60 a car seat; $150, a crib; $200, a nice guilt-inducing ultrasound. At the bottom it says, 'ONE LIFE SAVED: PRICELESS'. Never mind that none of these donations are good for more than a few weeks or a few months at a time. A child grows out of a car seat and it won't do you any good if you haven't got a car anyway. A crib, similarly, is outgrown, and a whopping $200 for an ultrasound that will no doubt be used to fill the poor girl with insurmountable guilt does NOTHING AT ALL to help feed, clothe, or shelter the resulting infant or do anything to help the mother provide for herself or her child.
Wow, that's kind of fucked up.
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Sorry, I didn't mean that it's ONLY men who have loud, contrary opinions on the matter of abortion--just that, in my experience, the loudest ones with the most power tend to be men.
I didn't say you did. I said that, from my own observations, which do not account for the ratios of people actually IN political positions, I do not agree.
And that is pretty fucked up.
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Sorry, I didn't mean that it's ONLY men who have loud, contrary opinions on the matter of abortion--just that, in my experience, the loudest ones with the most power tend to be men. (Even though I know that Palin and Bachmann are some of the most anti-choice people in the political realm at the moment and actually DO have uteruses.) I should have clarified that it was an opinion and based on personal experience. It's only because there are more men than women in positions of power on BOTH sides of the political spectrum that it seems like the majority of the most influential anti-choice voices belong to men.
Even so, I still believe that if men could get pregnant then abortion rights would be preserved in every written law since Hammurabi's Code.
What I find the most single-handedly infuriating about almost everyone on the anti-choice side is that they don't give a fuck about the 'defense of life' or caring for the innocent little babies. They're overwhelmingly (but not invariably) staunchly against social welfare programs and assistance that the mothers of unwanted children or the caretakers of orphans and foster kids desperately need. They're against healthcare, public assistance, food stamps, free childcare, and reduced/free education or job training for the mothers to pull them out of poverty. 'Pro-life until birth' was written as a satire but it sums up their ideology pretty well.
This comic (linked for size) (http://armzrace.com/cej/CannonFodder/cycle-of-pro-life.jpg) is relevant.
As is this picture, that I took about two years ago in a client's house (I had a dog-walking/pet-sitting business). It was attached to a plastic baby bottle full of change and the tag attached was from a local anti-abortion organization begging for donations. The tag listed the things you could 'provide' for unplanned children and/or their mothers with comparatively small amounts of change.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/punchbug/0717001617b.jpg)
It's hard to read, but it says that for $25 you could provide two weeks worth of formula; $35, three weeks worth of diapers; $60 a car seat; $150, a crib; $200, a nice guilt-inducing ultrasound. At the bottom it says, 'ONE LIFE SAVED: PRICELESS'. Never mind that none of these donations are good for more than a few weeks or a few months at a time. A child grows out of a car seat and it won't do you any good if you haven't got a car anyway. A crib, similarly, is outgrown, and a whopping $200 for an ultrasound that will no doubt be used to fill the poor girl with insurmountable guilt does NOTHING AT ALL to help feed, clothe, or shelter the resulting infant or do anything to help the mother provide for herself or her child.
This made me so furious that I counted the change and donated double to Planned Parenthood.
There's an Israeli charity that takes this approach. Their whole focus is on pregnant women who would actually prefer to have a child, but simply can't due to economic hardship.
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(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/punchbug/0717001617b.jpg)
I think what pisses me off the most about that label, is that for the price of that ultrasound, you could feed that baby for 8 weeks, but I doubt the anti-choice people would want that, guilting the parent into giving birth is of course far more important for them.
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Klan Parenthood, one of the most virulent anti-choice sites on the web, actually lists the abortion clinics in every state, calling them "death camps." http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/ (http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/)
considering who one of their heroes is...I find that funny.
Ironbite-and now I weep.
Who? ???
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Hitler
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Hitler
I thought he was only pro-life for the "Aryan" babies
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(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/punchbug/0717001617b.jpg)
I think what pisses me off the most about that label, is that for the price of that ultrasound, you could feed that baby for 8 weeks, but I doubt the anti-choice people would want that, guilting the parent into giving birth is of course far more important for them.
What about rent and food for the parents? What about mommy's doctor visits? Or baby doctor's visits?
Or do these people honestly think that's all someone needs to raise a baby?
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In the words of the great George Carlin: Once you leave the womb, conservatives don't care about you until you reach military age. Then you’re just what they’re looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers.
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(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/punchbug/0717001617b.jpg)
And what about the rest of the child's development until it reaches adulthood? Or does it only deserve support when it's an infant?
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That's the whole point. None of this is any help for the resulting baby OR the unwilling incubator, beyond a little token gesture of charity. It does nothing to provide for anyone involved in the long run--basic and medical needs are still unmet and left up to the mother or the state to take care of. No long-term assistance, no helping the parent(s) provide for themselves, no effort taken to find permanent homes for the untold numbers languishing in foster care. It completely boggles my mind that anyone can justify emotionally blackmailing someone facing an already difficult decision, then abandoning them to alone deal with the consequences of something they didn't really even have much of a choice in making. How can you even PRETEND to be the good guys when your battle plan consists entirely of coercion, emotional manipulation, flagrant lies, abandonment, and blame?
Not every member of the anti-choice brigade is also violently opposed to assistance, but the ones who are seem to be the loudest if not the most numerous.
It doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm also not a total asshole.
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Well, Cait, if they actually ADMIT that raising a baby is a long, difficult, & resource-consuming process, they can't say you're just a dirty slut who wants to murder babies out of selfish disregard for responsibility or consequence, being too stupid to know what's good for you, &/or just plain bloodlust.
And do you really want to live in that kind of world?
The gesture also does not address the pregnancy aspect, because they just have no answer other than "deal with it." On the other hand, those donations will be GREAT when you have to sell them to pay for food after you lose your job because you had to take maternity leave.
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I seriously need to make a "GODDAMMIT FLORIDA!" macro. >.<
Having only partially scanned over the rest of the thread, I'll say this:
If there IS a hell, I hope this guy burns in it and gets *insert horrific actions here* until he's *insert squicky reference here*. Seriously.
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To the anti-choice movement, getting pregnant is "God's Curse" on womankind for shoving an apple down Adam's throat. They wallow in the concept because it allows their own women hating motivations free reign. That's all. You're a woman. You're worse then dirt. If you get pregnant, its cause you're a slut. Oh you were raped? No such thing. Just walking out of the house in anything is an invitation. To them you're to blame for all the world's ills and they want to give you a reminder of that for all your days.
Ironbite-would love to burn the fuckers but that'd be wrong...so I just fantasize.
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Funny how it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant. It takes two to make a baby, yet I never hear the pro-life crowd advocating any sort of "penalty" for the father of an unwanted baby (aside from legal penalties if it was rape).
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Well, they probably will try to make him pay child support, but that doesn't affect his body for 9 months.
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These people should be treated no differently than any other kind of domestic, home grown terrorist cells. Take these people off to Guantanamo Bay and give them a few rounds of waterboarding since I am willing to bet the majority of the people protesting outside of clinics or those willing to firebomb the offices or assault/kill doctors are also the same people who say it isn't torture.
These people are no different than Al-Qaeda or the Taliban except for the fact they haven't gotten as violent as the two previously mentioned groups....Yet.
Bobby Joe Roger's mom should have swallowed. Or, Bobby Joe Roger's Dad should have just spunked off in his wife's belly button as opposed to inside her. Were this the case, we might have been spared this mans fucktardery.
(Edited to add swallowing, cumming in the belly button and mentions of fucktardation)
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Their anti-abortion stance is every bit as inane as the extremist Islamic groups. They openly advocate making abortion a crime punishable by death. Remember how they tried to make the murder of abortion doctors legal in South Dakota?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Abortion_Laws.svg/800px-Abortion_Laws.svg.png)
It should be noted that that little small red dot (red indicating completely illegal) in Italy influences much of America's anti-abortion policy.
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Funny how it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant. It takes two to make a baby, yet I never hear the pro-life crowd advocating any sort of "penalty" for the father of an unwanted baby (aside from legal penalties if it was rape).
Well, they probably will try to make him pay child support, but that doesn't affect his body for 9 months.
Oh they never blame the man. It's always the woman's fault for "leading him on" and therefore she receives 100% of the blame.
Ironbite-remember girls, it's leading someone on if you just exist.
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Their anti-abortion stance is every bit as inane as the extremist Islamic groups. They openly advocate making abortion a crime punishable by death. Remember how they tried to make the murder of abortion doctors legal in South Dakota?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Abortion_Laws.svg/800px-Abortion_Laws.svg.png)
It should be noted that that little small red dot (red indicating completely illegal) in Italy influences much of America's anti-abortion policy.
Venice? :P
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Their anti-abortion stance is every bit as inane as the extremist Islamic groups. They openly advocate making abortion a crime punishable by death. Remember how they tried to make the murder of abortion doctors legal in South Dakota?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Abortion_Laws.svg/800px-Abortion_Laws.svg.png)
It should be noted that that little small red dot (red indicating completely illegal) in Italy influences much of America's anti-abortion policy.
Venice? :P
The Holy See!
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What exactly does the color code mean?
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What exactly does the color code mean?
blue: Legal on request
green: Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fetal defects
yellow: Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health
gold: Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health
orange: Illegal with exception for maternal life, health, and/or mental health
red: Illegal with no exceptions
gray: Varies
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So when places like Iraq, Iran, and even Afghanistan and Pakistan, a couple of the most notorious places for horrible women's rights, have exceptions for abortion, what does that tell you about the places that outlaw completely, like Vatican City?
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So when places like Iraq, Iran, and even Afghanistan and Pakistan, a couple of the most notorious places for horrible women's rights, have exceptions for abortion, what does that tell you about the places that outlaw completely, like Vatican City?
It says that those places probably aren't as backwards as Vatican City.
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I'll be uncharacteristically optimistic here and hope it's just done for the purpose of making one act punishable under two or more different laws, thus allowing for a harsher sentence.
Please let that be the case...
To help you sleep easier at night: In some states it does carry two separate penalties. The rapist is charged with rape and then gets a second charge of incest thrown on top of it.
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I'll just leave this here:
The only moral abortion is MY abortion. (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html)
I should also add, anti-choice terrorists should be treated like the terrorists they are. I'd say something about poetic justice if they were "disappeared" under the same anti-terror laws they probably supported, but we don't need to violate the constitution to prosecute them.