Author Topic: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?  (Read 5848 times)

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Offline DNAunion

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I was posting on one of Eric Hovind's Facebook posts and a Creationist named Adam Taylor eventually jumped in.  I pointed out that in 1 Samuel 2:30-33, God punishes not just the "guilty" parties, but also their children and their children's children, who weren't even born yet.   To which Adam replied ...

Adam Taylor: "Why is it wrong to punish people for something they did not do?"

This folks, is the level of stupidity Christians are forced to stoop to when debating atheists!!!

http://www.facebook.com/ericmhovind/posts/257547947660140?notif_t=share_reply#!/ericmhovind/posts/257547947660140?notif_t=share_reply

Offline The Illusive Man

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 02:35:02 am »
Congratulations, you have discovered not just stupidity but a lack of empathy.

I would have also asked him which version of the bible and which interpretation does he rely upon. It’s the troll question that just keeps on trolling regardless of religion.
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 08:00:34 am »
It's wrong for the same reasons that it's foolish to pay someone back for money they didn't lend you.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 08:02:20 am by Mlle Antéchrist »
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Offline e13

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 11:42:51 am »
Because it breeds resentment. Punish the whole flock so they won't police themselves? Yeah, THAT works. All it teaches people to do is go along and break the rules anyway. You're going to be punished by association, might as well do the deed.

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Offline sandman

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 01:50:01 pm »
And thus you have run head long into one of the issues that most frustrates those of us engaging in theological thought. Of course God punishing the grandchildren of a wrongdoer for something they did not do does not coincide with the god of love portrayed in the New Testament. You could, if you were bold enough, venture that "god" says this in the Old Testament because the people were putting words in his mouth, injecting their bronze-age cultural traditions into religion, but if you did that you would have to acknowledge that the entire Bible must then be viewed through a lens of historical/cultural scholarship and critical thinking.

That, my friend, would be a lot of work and start a lot of (very interesting) arguments. Easier by far to simply end the conversation by saying that everything in the Bible is the 100% absolute word of GOD, and any contradictions that we don't understand are because God is beyond our understanding. Case closed, mind closed.

I have seen this exact verse pointed out in this exact way to fundamentalist thinkers before. The standard answer is that "If god does it, then it isn't immoral" or a long, winding explanation on how god is not restricted t human concepts of things like morality and right & wrong.
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Offline e13

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 02:20:08 pm »
And thus you have run head long into one of the issues that most frustrates those of us engaging in theological thought. Of course God punishing the grandchildren of a wrongdoer for something they did not do does not coincide with the god of love portrayed in the New Testament. You could, if you were bold enough, venture that "god" says this in the Old Testament because the people were putting words in his mouth, injecting their bronze-age cultural traditions into religion, but if you did that you would have to acknowledge that the entire Bible must then be viewed through a lens of historical/cultural scholarship and critical thinking.

That, my friend, would be a lot of work and start a lot of (very interesting) arguments. Easier by far to simply end the conversation by saying that everything in the Bible is the 100% absolute word of GOD, and any contradictions that we don't understand are because God is beyond our understanding. Case closed, mind closed.

I have seen this exact verse pointed out in this exact way to fundamentalist thinkers before. The standard answer is that "If god does it, then it isn't immoral" or a long, winding explanation on how god is not restricted t human concepts of things like morality and right & wrong.
"You don't understand, people were really that bad back then!"

That was an explanation I was given. I didn't want to get into a theological debate with this person, since they live and breathe their Bible and I'm not supplied with notes or prep, but there you go. They were really bad, so we punish and kill all.

 ???

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Offline Qlockworkcanary

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 03:02:14 pm »
I've long argued that the OT is an example of God punishing all of mankind for the sins of their parents, which is immoral as fuck.

Original sin is exactly that -God punishing everyone's descendants. It's fun to see them (theists) perform some fantastic mental gymnastics when they try to justify this.
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Offline rageaholic

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 03:15:06 pm »
I bet he's a Calvinist.  They are always the ones who rely on pseudo philosophical bullshit when cornered.  I bet if you were to convince him that it's wrong because the people who are being punished have no say, he'll still play the semantics game (or use romans 9). 

I also hate apologetics.  They don't prove anything, they just assume that it's right from the go, and then make excuses for the millions of contradictions found within. 

Offline Qlockworkcanary

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 03:30:28 pm »
Yup, many of them start with their conclusion and work back-asswards, cherry-picking what supports their belief and ignoring anything that doesn't. A lot of times I ask fundies if they believed the Bible was inerrant before or after they read it.
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Offline sandman

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 04:36:38 pm »
You are always in trouble when you are around people who insist on twisting reality to match their pre-conceived ideas.
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Offline Captain Jack Harkness

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2012, 04:42:27 pm »
And thus you have run head long into one of the issues that most frustrates those of us engaging in theological thought. Of course God punishing the grandchildren of a wrongdoer for something they did not do does not coincide with the god of love portrayed in the New Testament. You could, if you were bold enough, venture that "god" says this in the Old Testament because the people were putting words in his mouth, injecting their bronze-age cultural traditions into religion, but if you did that you would have to acknowledge that the entire Bible must then be viewed through a lens of historical/cultural scholarship and critical thinking.

That, my friend, would be a lot of work and start a lot of (very interesting) arguments. Easier by far to simply end the conversation by saying that everything in the Bible is the 100% absolute word of GOD, and any contradictions that we don't understand are because God is beyond our understanding. Case closed, mind closed.

I have seen this exact verse pointed out in this exact way to fundamentalist thinkers before. The standard answer is that "If god does it, then it isn't immoral" or a long, winding explanation on how god is not restricted t human concepts of things like morality and right & wrong.

Then they turn around and tell us that we "get our morality from God/The Bible."  That right there is professional mental gymnastics. >.<
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Offline clockworkgirl21

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2012, 04:55:34 pm »
I once got in a fight with a teacher over this. In 5th grade someone wrote something rude on the blackboard, and the teacher decided to hold everyone in class at the end of the day until that person either came forward or someone ratted them out. But at 3:30 sharp I stood up and started to walk out. The teacher said, "What do you think you're doing?"
I answered, "It's 3:30. My dad is out in the parking lot to pick me up, and I didn't write anything on the board, so I'm leaving." I walked out. The next morning she tried to give me detention, but a call from my father straightened that out...I wasn't punished.

I am usually spineless and try to avoid confrontation, but damn it, don't you dare try to hold me in that hellhole for longer than I have to be there for shit I didn't do.

Offline sandman

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2012, 08:08:49 pm »
Yeah, the old "punish everyone in the class" ploy. The teacher doesn't really want to punish everyone, they just want the old peer pressure to force someone to tattle on who really did it. It's a bad tactic because it almost never works and every minute that goes by makes the teacher look weaker and weaker and every moment that goes by without anyone tattling makes it less and less likely that anyone ever will. All the teacher is doing with this tactic is clearly demonstrating how little control they actually have over their class.

I train student teachers all the time, and I always make them memorize the Ten Commandments Of Classroom Discipline.

1. Thou Shalt Not Make Empty Threats. If you say you are going to do something, then do it. if you say that Jimmy loses recess if he talks during a quiz, and he talks, Jimmy damn well better not be outside for recess. Otherwise little Jimmy now owns you. Make no threats or promises of discipline you are not ready and willing and have the authority to follow through on. If classroom teachers do not have the power to suspend a student (and almost none of them do....), then you do NOT threaten a student with suspension. It just makes you look stupid.

2. Thou Shalt Deal With The Disease, Not the Symptom. Students will misbehave for an infinite number of reasons, but they will only misbehave in a finite number of ways. This means that the same behavior is often motivated by vastly different reasons, and you can not treat every instance of a behavior the same. You must identify why a behavior is occurring before you can intervene to stop the behavior on a long term basis. If all you ever do is deal with the behavior itself, you will continue to deal with it all year. By all means issue consequences for the behavior, but deal with the cause at your first opportunity. If you can not determine causes of behavior, try another profession.

3. Thou Shalt Be Consistent. Students, unlike Vroomfondle and Magicthighs, do not thrive on doubt and uncertainty. They must know that if certain behaviors are performed that are against your clearly defined rules, that certain consequences will be issued. These consequences must be consistent from day to day. Something that rates 2 demerits on Monday can not become 10 on Friday when your nerves are frazzled. Likewise something you issued a detention for on Tuesday can not be ignored on Thursday, It does not matter how busy you are, you must stop and deal with it.

4. Thou Shalt Make Them Wait For It. There is no need to issue consequences immediately for a behavior. Your students are not puppies; they possess the capacity to connect a delayed consequence with a previous behavior. If you are uncertain about what to do about a certain behavior, look momentarily grim, inform the student you will need to think about it and will inform them of your decision tomorrow, then shake you head sadly and go on with the lesson. Occasionally throughout the day gaze over at them and sigh before jotting something down on a pad of paper. A good teacher can make the wait to find out the consequence far worse than the consequence itself. (I have had students beg me to just give them detentions. I smile sadly and say, "I'll think about it. Can I tell you tomorrow?")

5. Thou Shalt Not Demand a Rat. Want to know the fastest way to turn a class against you? Hold the entire class responsible for the actions of a few in an attempt to get peer pressure to reveal who did it. It never works. You either get the Class Martyr to theatrically admit to it just to end the Mexican stand off or you get a silent, sullen room of students who are now in about the worst state of mind you can possibly be to learn. If no one rats out the culprit in the first 30 seconds, the odds of them doing it at all are very remote, and if no one does, you just look like a jackass. A weak, powerless jackass. The students will not be angry at the student whose actions put them in this position....they will be angry at the teacher. Congratulations! You have now lost the class.

6. Thou Shalt Be Confident. Project confidence. Show no fear. If you are going to be wrong, be wrong strong. If students come up to you to admit something that they did, let them assume from your responses and body language that you already knew what they had done and were just waiting for them to come admit it to you.....even if you had no idea that they had even done anything at all. If someone confesses to you that they were the culprit in a mysterious misbehavior....make them think you already knew. A good teacher can play this game so well that students begin to suspect some kind of mutant mind reading is going on. (I once had students spend an hour at lunch searching my classroom for the hidden cameras they were convinced must be there.)

7. Thou Shalt Not Need No Steenking Badges. An appeal to higher authority, the principal, another teacher, whoever, surrenders your authority, and the students sense this. Once you have started relying on an outside authority (or the threat of an outside authority), you will generally have to continue relying on them. Congratulations! You are no longer the master of your classroom, and have probably become the Principal's least favorite faculty member. Only appeal to a higher authority when it is absolutely necessary.

8. Thou Shalt Not Wed Thyself To A Specific Method. If what you are doing is not working, change it. Never be so committed to a specific methodology that you can not break free from it if it is ineffective. It doesn't matter if it worked for the last 10 years, if it isn't working now, change it.

9. Thou Shalt Not Measure Thy Manhood (Or Womanhood) Against Thy Student's. No pissing contests with students. You do not debate with students about discipline, you do not argue with them. Feel free to discuss these matters with them when they (and you) are calm, but know the difference between a discussion and an argument and do not allow yourself to be drawn into the latter. Do not negotiate or make deals with students on matters of discipline, this implies that you are equals in status on the matter. You are not equals when it comes to discipline: you are in charge.

10. Thou Shalt Not Humiliate Thy Students. You do not hold students up for ridicule or public humiliation. A lot of teachers use humiliation techniques every day, mocking or disparaging their students over behavior or academic failures. This is a very bad idea. You know what you get when you humiliate a student with a behavior problem? You get a pissed off student who still has the original behavior problem. Nice job, Sherlock. Way to make your day more difficult. A quite word in private is always better than a loud word in public.
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Offline MadCatTLX

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2012, 09:01:04 pm »
2. Thou Shalt Deal With The Disease, Not the Symptom. Students will misbehave for an infinite number of reasons, but they will only misbehave in a finite number of ways. This means that the same behavior is often motivated by vastly different reasons, and you can not treat every instance of a behavior the same. You must identify why a behavior is occurring before you can intervene to stop the behavior on a long term basis. If all you ever do is deal with the behavior itself, you will continue to deal with it all year. By all means issue consequences for the behavior, but deal with the cause at your first opportunity. If you can not determine causes of behavior, try another profession.

What if the behavior is motivated by issues out of your "jurisdiction", say at their home?

Quote
3. Thou Shalt Be Consistent. Students, unlike Vroomfondle and Magicthighs, do not thrive on doubt and uncertainty. They must know that if certain behaviors are performed that are against your clearly defined rules, that certain consequences will be issued. These consequences must be consistent from day to day. Something that rates 2 demerits on Monday can not become 10 on Friday when your nerves are frazzled. Likewise something you issued a detention for on Tuesday can not be ignored on Thursday, It does not matter how busy you are, you must stop and deal with it.

Not related to the rule but I first misread vroomfondle as broomfondle which reminds me of a story from my school last year. A kid my age(then sophomore in high school) that was a jock told my of a time he "raped"(I say this as he was wearing pants at least the first time so there was no penetration) another kid in the locker room with a broom handle. While I wasn't there personally there were a few people there and I was told the story by the "rapist" himself. As I would assume there were no consequences to my knowledge. He then claims to have done it again a couple weeks later with a rake, though that wasn't on school property. I heard tell that he did in again and this time it was a different kind of handle if you know what I mean. The "rapist" also on multiple occasions came up behind me sitting in class and dry humped my back, and once he flashed everyone his junk. Now everyone involved in all of this is male, but the "rapist" is still homophobic and insinuates people are gay to insult them. Me and everyone else say he's in a glass closet (he's in there but you can see it plain as day) and he's throwing rocks. This year he spent the first half of the year he was in class with me with talking about sex with animals and making jokes other people were doing such, not realizing he's the one talking about it daily and greeting everyone when he walks in with a goat noise. Not a single consequence for any of this.

Quote
5. Thou Shalt Not Demand a Rat. Want to know the fastest way to turn a class against you? Hold the entire class responsible for the actions of a few in an attempt to get peer pressure to reveal who did it. It never works. You either get the Class Martyr to theatrically admit to it just to end the Mexican stand off or you get a silent, sullen room of students who are now in about the worst state of mind you can possibly be to learn. If no one rats out the culprit in the first 30 seconds, the odds of them doing it at all are very remote, and if no one does, you just look like a jackass. A weak, powerless jackass. The students will not be angry at the student whose actions put them in this position....they will be angry at the teacher. Congratulations! You have now lost the class.
The kids know if they say anything about the troublemaker they'll get more shit than it's worth. "Snitches get stitches and lay dead in ditches", and such. I know people who take that very seriously.

Quote
10. Thou Shalt Not Humiliate Thy Students. You do not hold students up for ridicule or public humiliation. A lot of teachers use humiliation techniques every day, mocking or disparaging their students over behavior or academic failures. This is a very bad idea. You know what you get when you humiliate a student with a behavior problem? You get a pissed off student who still has the original behavior problem. Nice job, Sherlock. Way to make your day more difficult. A quite word in private is always better than a loud word in public.

I've had teachers that make students give them their shoes to borrow a fucking pencil. Another teacher made a "yo momma" joke to a kid. He said something relatively normal and she said, "yo momma (whatever)s", fucking classy.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 09:11:41 pm by MadCatTLX »
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Why is it wrong to punish people for something theye did not do?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2012, 10:19:14 pm »
-snip-

Oh look, an epic sandman post. ;)

My Spanish teacher and my Chinese teacher fail at most of this. They've both threatened to send kids to detention if they don't STFU and let her teach, but they never follow through on their threats. It got to one point where the Chinese teacher had to get the principal to sit in on the class to monitor their behavior, and everyone was... just great that day. The principal suggested to the teacher that she make tally marks on a sheet or something to keep track of who's goofing off, but she forgot after about a week. Now she goes for the kindergarten-school method of making one certain kid (to be fair, a real class clown) sit in the corner desk closest to her, and he cannot get out of his chair for anything without permission. I have no idea what sort of problem this is supposed to solve. It comes across as a ridiculous punitive grudge, not a measure to ensure the class's productivity. What school does she think she's teaching at? This is the kid who outright stated that the reason nobody respects her requests as a teacher is because she has no control over what they do, so they have no incentive to do what she says. He can get away with that. Because she won't do anything about it.

My Spanish teacher has tried the "keep kids after class" method, even if it's only five or so loud assholes who are chatting it up the whole period. This cuts into our lunchtime. The longest time was just eight minutes of doing nothing. It wasn't productive, it was just intended to be punitive. I asked her why I, one of the top students in her class, was being detained as well, and she just said that as a teacher she can't keep track of all the students who are misbehaving. WTF? It's always the same five students! A good disciplinarian would take notes when they see stuff like this happen! Did I mention this is cutting into everyone's lunchtime?

/rant
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