Author Topic: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack  (Read 4791 times)

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Offline Askold

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2013, 12:05:43 am »
The FBI has stated that the device design was completely feasible and deadly. The Feds have engineers available to analyze things like this.
Do you have a link?

I'm going to second that as I would like to read it for myself. The idea that some people actually were trying to make a sophisticated radiological weapon is very alarming.

It does not have to be that sophisticated. Lead box with a door will do the trick.

1) Put some radioactive material in the box.

2) Move the box to the desired location.

3) Open door on the box, radiation will now have an escape route from the box. (If you can do it remotely then all the better.)

4) People on the path of the radiation will get irradiated.

The problem is finding the radioactive material. There are permits and regulations that have been put to place so that misusing radioactive material would be harder.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2013, 11:45:48 am »
The FBI has stated that the device design was completely feasible and deadly. The Feds have engineers available to analyze things like this.
Do you have a link?

I'm going to second that as I would like to read it for myself. The idea that some people actually were trying to make a sophisticated radiological weapon is very alarming.

It does not have to be that sophisticated. Lead box with a door will do the trick.

1) Put some radioactive material in the box.

2) Move the box to the desired location.

3) Open door on the box, radiation will now have an escape route from the box. (If you can do it remotely then all the better.)

4) People on the path of the radiation will get irradiated.

The problem is finding the radioactive material. There are permits and regulations that have been put to place so that misusing radioactive material would be harder.
But this is not what they designed. The claim is that they have a device that can focus radiation in a narrow beam in lethal doses.

Dead is dead, of course, doesn't really matter if it was because of a focused beam of X-rays or a shitload* of a radioactive material in a box. But I'm curious as to whether this could work and whether it would be any more effective than a gun.



*I don't actually know how much you'd need before you get to lethal levels, but I assume it's a lot, more so for the easier-to-obtain stuff.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2013, 01:44:02 pm »
The story is still very new. I have tried to find some clear descriptions of the device, but am inclined to believe that the specifications are not available as this is now a pending federal criminal courts case. The federal attorney also states the weapon was feasible, although he stated covert agents posing as supporters/buyers made sure that no working radiological supply was ever part of the device the conspirators were working on. I don't think the FBI or US attorneys are misleading about the device' potential to harm. They have access to a wide array of qualified people for assessing the device and it's feasibility, though. I checked the FBI's press release on fbi.gov, and the statements are the same as in the several news articles appearing on the web.

The way I can see this working would be to focus the x-ray emissions in a very tight cone, even a straight line as is done with other electromagnetic spectrum rays, as in lasers. Although the amount of radiation would require a large power capacity to generate 8 Grays, as claimed by one of the terrorists, it would be enough to cause serious harm in only a brief exposure at near range, perhaps a split second.

Think of; park the van next to a mosque pedestrian entrance or car park driveway where the device is pointing across where people or vehicles are slowly passing on their way to worship services. Remotely toggle the emitter on for a split second x-ray burst as a victim passes in front of the beam or cone of emitted x-rays. For a power source, super capacitors are quite small and efficient for this need, and a van could hold a lot of them, or if the van is disguised as a repair company vehicle, run a heavy gauge electric cable to the nearest contractor's service hookup to recharge an array of deep cycle batteries or combination with large capacitors.  Not sure just how much charge capacity/how quick the drain would be to produce a split second burst.

There are industrial inspection and research x-ray machines with focusable emitters, and x-ray lasers used to inspect things such as ship propellers and jet engine turbine vanes for structural cracks, or to produce micrographs of very small objects and sub atomic particles. They are extremely large and expensive, but obviously these are orders of magnitude larger and more powerful than what the terrorists' came up with. I am also guessing that as to radiological source material, the connection with GE or with some other potential medical scan device supplier was arranged by the terrorists, albeit they unknowingly were thwarted by the undercover agents. These materials are regulated, but if a purchase were attempted by the GE employee using the equivalent of "company letterhead", it would not likely have raised suspicions on the part of the regulated supplier.
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Offline niam2023

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2013, 05:00:18 pm »
So these people were straight up, real life cartoon / comic villains.


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Offline Old Viking

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2013, 10:04:52 pm »
Is the water gun idea just being dismissed out of hand?
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2013, 01:38:31 am »
Just to expand upon what MellenORL said, you get a variety of radioactive emitters. These do not use radioactive materials as you can generate a similar type of radiation with linear accelerators. Further these devices do emit the radiation somewhat directionally. However, as I stated before, radioactive dissipation over distance will result in anyone in the area of the emitter being exposed to lethal levels of radiation. Especially if they are trying to lethally expose someone over anything more than 100m.

Weapons like these are possible, but completely inefficient. They consume too much power, are too expensive, have far too short range and are a threat to the user. Sure it can kill people, but bullets work better which is why the military have never really implemented weapons like these.

Offline mellenORL

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2013, 02:19:38 am »
Yes, from researching around the .gov and science .edu sites, I can't see the thing as having any real range, and just the stated terrorist plan of operating it remotely, from a safe distance away from the truck/van, was a hint in itself...can't scope in a victim that way from distance. Hence the scenario of parking it right at a pedestrian or vehicle chokepoint.

Shielding the source material at this scale assumption may not be that big a deal, though. Layers of lead sheathing, probably. It later occurred to me that the fed agents may have played the role of black market material supplier, rather than them trying to gather scores of medical x-ray radiological units.

I don't think the industrial x-ray scanners use accelerators, but are just large versions of medical x-ray units.  Of course the x-ray laser micrograph devices have to use huge accelerators...and they are mega budget, gigantic things, too.

Like I said earlier, I am going on the assumption that the FBI and federal attorneys are not misleading as to the device being feasible.
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Offline Jack Mann

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 09:49:17 am »
Well, there's no reason the government would want a weapon like this.  Generally, when we kill someone, we generally want people to know that we did it.  Or else, in the case of CIA wetworks type actions, care is taken to make it look like someone else did it.

These guys?  They wanted a more subtle weapon.  Something that would kill people long after they'd gotten away.  According to The Southern Poverty Law Center, the experts retained by investigators believe the device would have worked.  Yes, it would have been less effective than a shotgun.  But it would have been harder for the victims to recognize that they were even being murdered.  It could have taken many victims before it was even clear that they'd been intentionally irradiated.

The government also has no use for IEDs, when smart bombs are much more efficient.  Terrorists, with very different resources and goals, find them extremely useful.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2013, 11:39:36 am »
I have not even clicked that SPLC link....because I have the cold shivers, all over again. Holey Fuck!
They must've just come across some unexpected way of making this thing feasible.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 01:18:01 pm »
.

The government also has no use for IEDs, when smart bombs are much more efficient.  Terrorists, with very different resources and goals, find them extremely useful.
Not completely true. Soldiers have been known to used IEDs to bust down walls in buildings, because they have found that doorways are often booby-trapped or have someone hidden off to the side, often drugged out to stay awake for days on end, just waiting to jump them.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2013, 03:17:37 am »


So Bad It's Good comic book is related. (The Doom Comic)
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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2013, 01:28:45 pm »
... that is so something I'd... hell, probably still read today, come to think of it.
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Offline worlder

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2013, 02:49:41 pm »
So how long before the exact schematics and documentation leaks into general terrorist knowledge?

Offline Askold

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2013, 02:52:47 pm »
... that is so something I'd... hell, probably still read today, come to think of it.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: White Supremacists Plot Radiological Attack
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 05:52:50 pm »
You know you've read too much manga when you try to read that comic right to left and shake your head in confusion.
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