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Community => Entertainment and Television => Topic started by: SpaceProg on August 12, 2013, 12:49:15 pm
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Yeah, very imaginative title, I know.
This is to take up where the Things People Say on the Internet thread left off. Starting here or abouts: http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=64.msg185477#msg185477 (http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=64.msg185477#msg185477).
Arguement: suggesting the show/Doctor has taken a misogynistic turn since Moffat took the helm.
Possible divergences into female Doctor also.
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I dont watch Dr. but Moffat has said some not so good things with Sherlock. For instance he said that an asexual is uninteresting
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I dont watch Dr. but Moffat has said some not so good things with Sherlock. For instance he said that an asexual is uninteresting
He's also said that Sherlock and John are the official couple, but that sex and romance don't have to be connected (he said they're romantic, not sexual). So, did he change his mind or was he misinterpreted?
As for The Doctor himself, I think the companions' lives revolving around him isn't so much sexism as just plot stuff (kinda like how everyone's life revolves around Buffy Summers or Bruce Wayne). With Amy, he did something new with The Doctor meeting his companion as a child, and being their childhood friend, saving them, before disappearing and breaking his promise. If a spaceman told you you'd get to have space adventures, as soon as he was back, and then he didn't come back for a decade, you'd be focused on him, too. Plus, she had a crush on him the whole time. Actually, now that I think of it, Amy's a fangirl. That's the idea. If saying fangirls exist is sexist, we've gone off the rails on a crazy train. Clara was another new thing. Moffat has been doing companions differently, with them having purpose or fates rather than being just there or as romance fodder. Amy was destined to give birth to River and help save reality. Clara was destined to save reality and The Doctor. I fail to see how a woman saving a man is sexist. And yes, The Doctor has made some sexist remarks, but they were about someone close to him. It's like calling someone you love a fucking idiot. You might be saying something that most would see as dickish, but they're friends. Hell, a know a black woman who finds it utterly hilarious for her white friends to use "nigga" with her (my girlfriend included, which, the first time, just had me looking at her like "Really?" before they explained), because she's like "They're scrawny white girls, why should I care?" She's an ubergeek that puts me to shame, and one of the oddest people I know (she's a legitimate, pro-China all the way, in love with the original Starship Troopers book fascist, too). So, yeah, basically, it's sexist to us. To them, it's playful.
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I'm not interested in Doctor Who. I just think it would be hilarious to see nerds crying about how OMG CHANGE THE DOCTOR IS SUPPOSED TO BE A WHITE MAN I CAN'T IDENTIFY WITH WOMEN OR MINORITIES. Like when The Hunger Games movie came out and racists were shocked and disappointed to discover that Rue is African-American.
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11's a misogynist? Maybe I'm dense, but I've not seen that.
Sure.
1) Rory gets sneered at and told to not be such a woman. (remember when you said him being treated poorly by the Doctor, PHH? Yeah, that. Telling a man they're being womanly isn't exactly A+ behavior and tells a lot of how someone feels about the gender they're telling you not to be like)
2) The general behavior towards women. How they aren't treated like proper equals like Donna and Martha were. Even as far back as the Classic Who you have women who are treated as equals. 11 doesn't exactly have that happening. Doesn't treat his companions like that. Sure you can consider it ego but then why does he treat other males better? Why was Captain Jack treated so much better than Rory was?
3) Everyone's life revolves around the Doctor. Amy spent how many years waiting for the Doctor? And what did Donna and Martha do? Oh they went and did a bunch of kickass shit all on their own without the Doctor. Oh, they remembered him but they didn't pine for him. Same can't be said for Clara or Amy, can it? Clara's life very much revolved around the Doctor.
And the general writing speaks loads of the writer, Moffat himself. There's a lot to turn me off of 11. And it's a grand departure from what his previous incarnations were like.
Now, I'm not saying 11 is being obvious in it or that it isn't just circumstantial he'd say something wrong at certain points. It's not uncommon. The main thing with Ten and Donna is that he told her she wasn't important at all and that affected her throughout her season with him.
But 11 has turned into something who isn't "my Doctor".
Oh and I'll leave this gem of a line: “She’s been brainwashed, it probably makes sense to her. Plus, she’s a woman." Doctor, no...
But, if anyone wants to continue this I suggest another thread so as not to get too off track in this one.
I think the argument that the writing in general has become misogynistic has.. some merit, especially taking these quotes by Moffat into account, but not enough to fully convince me. With regards to the Doctor as a character, I'm gonna have to disagree. The points you make are rather weak.
1. Okay, I'll give you that.
2. You provide your own counterargument. He treats Jack better - but not Rory.
3. Why yes, why does the show revolve around the main character? Amy spent 12 years waiting for the Doctor - Rory spent 2000 years waiting for Amy. Why is the one robbing her of meaningful narrative potential yet the other not? It's a sign of devotion. A woman being depicted as devoted to a man can be misogynistic - yet it doesn't have to be. The data point that twelve episodes later, a man is doing the same thing for a woman pretty much disproves any misogyny at this point. Also, her devotion was not primarily in a romantic way, or she wouldn't have gotten herself engaged with Rory in the meantime. Also, this is again the storywriting, not the character.
Here I wanted to counter some of your arguments regarding the plot mistreating Amy, but thinking about it I'm rather becoming convinced. Even the episodes that focus on her.. 'Amy's Choice' is between two men. The 5th finale portrays her as a central figure, but the Doc tends to do everything and she just has to follow his instructions. 6th midfinale has her playing the Damsel in Distress.
But that's just Amy. Let's take a look at the other companions. Rory is pretty much defined by his relationship to Amy. Does this make the show misandrist? And there is River, who many see as a Mary Sue. While her crush on the Doctor is a big part of her character, she is definitely the one taking the lead in their relationship.
Going beyond companions, I don't see how anyone could consider Kovarian's portrayal as being misogynistic.
I haven't seen Series 7 yet, so can't say much about Clara.
Regarding the sex of any future incarnations of the Doc - as long as it's portrayed well, I don't care. However, I'm afraid that the writer[ s], trying to disprove any accusations of misogyny, will end up trying to overcompensate and make her some ridiculous badass, and as we all know, that is not a assurance that they won't fall into the same subconscious 'dependent on a man' traps regardless. Fiction is full of failed attempts. With the Doctor herself, such a thing would be even more damaging than with the companions. If in doubt, I'd rather they stick with men until the next generation of writers has less subconscious baggage.
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Regarding the sex of any future incarnations of the Doc - as long as it's portrayed well, I don't care. However, I'm afraid that the writer[ s], trying to disprove any accusations of misogyny, will end up trying to overcompensate and make her some ridiculous badass, and as we all know, that is not a assurance that they won't fall into the same subconscious 'dependent on a man' traps regardless. Fiction is full of failed attempts. With the Doctor herself, such a thing would be even more damaging than with the companions. If in doubt, I'd rather they stick with men until the next generation of writers has less subconscious baggage.
That might actually be for the best. A scenario of doing it and it not really being a big deal compared to doing it because it's something you feel you have to do.
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11's a misogynist? Maybe I'm dense, but I've not seen that.
Sure.
1) Rory gets sneered at and told to not be such a woman. (remember when you said him being treated poorly by the Doctor, PHH? Yeah, that. Telling a man they're being womanly isn't exactly A+ behavior and tells a lot of how someone feels about the gender they're telling you not to be like)
2) The general behavior towards women. How they aren't treated like proper equals like Donna and Martha were. Even as far back as the Classic Who you have women who are treated as equals. 11 doesn't exactly have that happening. Doesn't treat his companions like that. Sure you can consider it ego but then why does he treat other males better? Why was Captain Jack treated so much better than Rory was?
3) Everyone's life revolves around the Doctor. Amy spent how many years waiting for the Doctor? And what did Donna and Martha do? Oh they went and did a bunch of kickass shit all on their own without the Doctor. Oh, they remembered him but they didn't pine for him. Same can't be said for Clara or Amy, can it? Clara's life very much revolved around the Doctor.
And the general writing speaks loads of the writer, Moffat himself. There's a lot to turn me off of 11. And it's a grand departure from what his previous incarnations were like.
Now, I'm not saying 11 is being obvious in it or that it isn't just circumstantial he'd say something wrong at certain points. It's not uncommon. The main thing with Ten and Donna is that he told her she wasn't important at all and that affected her throughout her season with him.
But 11 has turned into something who isn't "my Doctor".
Oh and I'll leave this gem of a line: “She’s been brainwashed, it probably makes sense to her. Plus, she’s a woman." Doctor, no...
But, if anyone wants to continue this I suggest another thread so as not to get too off track in this one.
I think the argument that the writing in general has become misogynistic has.. some merit, especially taking these quotes by Moffat into account, but not enough to fully convince me. With regards to the Doctor as a character, I'm gonna have to disagree. The points you make are rather weak.
1. Okay, I'll give you that.
2. You provide your own counterargument. He treats Jack better - but not Rory.
3. Why yes, why does the show revolve around the main character? Amy spent 12 years waiting for the Doctor - Rory spent 2000 years waiting for Amy. Why is the one robbing her of meaningful narrative potential yet the other not? It's a sign of devotion. A woman being depicted as devoted to a man can be misogynistic - yet it doesn't have to be. The data point that twelve episodes later, a man is doing the same thing for a woman pretty much disproves any misogyny at this point. Also, her devotion was not primarily in a romantic way, or she wouldn't have gotten herself engaged with Rory in the meantime. Also, this is again the storywriting, not the character.
Here I wanted to counter some of your arguments regarding the plot mistreating Amy, but thinking about it I'm rather becoming convinced. Even the episodes that focus on her.. 'Amy's Choice' is between two men. The 5th finale portrays her as a central figure, but the Doc tends to do everything and she just has to follow his instructions. 6th midfinale has her playing the Damsel in Distress.
But that's just Amy. Let's take a look at the other companions. Rory is pretty much defined by his relationship to Amy. Does this make the show misandrist? And there is River, who many see as a Mary Sue. While her crush on the Doctor is a big part of her character, she is definitely the one taking the lead in their relationship.
Going beyond companions, I don't see how anyone could consider Kovarian's portrayal as being misogynistic.
I haven't seen Series 7 yet, so can't say much about Clara.
Regarding the sex of any future incarnations of the Doc - as long as it's portrayed well, I don't care. However, I'm afraid that the writer[ s], trying to disprove any accusations of misogyny, will end up trying to overcompensate and make her some ridiculous badass, and as we all know, that is not a assurance that they won't fall into the same subconscious 'dependent on a man' traps regardless. Fiction is full of failed attempts. With the Doctor herself, such a thing would be even more damaging than with the companions. If in doubt, I'd rather they stick with men until the next generation of writers has less subconscious baggage.
As for 2, not really. Considering who was writing the dialogue (and allowed through. I don't agree with the whole 'BUT MOFFAT CREATED CAPTAIN JACK'). Jack was never told to stop being such a woman. His sexuality was 'ignored' by the Doctor. He didn't care. Which is how it should be. Jack was another friend who didn't fall into the flamboyant gay friend stereotype (even tho it's clear he's bisexual, at the least). By better treatment I specifically meant not being at the brunt of 'emasculating language'. If you catch my meaning. Not even Mickey had that. He was simply called stupid, dumb, and the whole lot. I think if Rory were the tin dog that might've been a step up from his treatment by the 11th Doctor.
But no, the argument that of course the show is gonna revolve around the doctor isn't what I meant. I specifically pointed out previous companions about how they clearly had a life that we saw outside of the Doctor. What did we see of Clara and Amy's lives outside of the Doctor? Amy was... a kissogram and married and Clara was... oh yes specifically tailored to be in the Doctor's life.
And throwing in 'but there's Rory' isn't the point of the argument. I'm specifically looking at how the female companions are treated. I have my problems with older River Song (or younger, as the case may be in the show), but she wasn't long-term enough for me to set my eyes on such as Amy and Clara were.
I am however glad you could see my point of view at least some of the way.
I will also clearly point out at this point in time, while Moffat is at the helm, I do not want a female Doctor. I am too afraid of how the show would turn. The difference between my argument and the ones I've seen are mine are in fear of sexist behavior, others I've seen are because of sexist behavior.
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Regarding Rory, Shane, I think you're forgetting all the times he's been shown to be a badass. He survived being erased from freaking time itself, he punched the Doctor square in the face, (with the Doctor's help) he managed to make an army of Cybermen practically shit themselves, lived thru 2000 years worth of wars (including the London Blitz), was the one to notice that River was in the Doctor's exploding TARDIS by virtue of his then-plastic ears, and tons of other shit.
Also, not seeing much of their lives? Did you seriously pay that little attention to the end of Amy and Rory's tenure as companions? Part of the whole drama of their last series was because they'd pretty much lived an entire life (off-screen, sure) outside the Doctor, got divorced because Amy's barren, Amy became a model, Rory became...something I can't remember, and coming back together with the Doctor during his trip thru the Dalek Asylum was a gigantic shock to both of them because of just how much time had passed between that and their previous meeting, the whole adventure in the Asylum basically acting as a catalyst to bring Amy and Rory back together and working out some SERIOUS relationship issues.
Yet, they got little characterization. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Also, I think you might be reading a little too much into the Doctor telling Rory to "stop being such a woman." I highly doubt its because 11 is sexist, its just friendly ripping and nothing more. If its sexist, then its on a level where its not really all that significant to the character or the show; its, to me, a more polite way of telling your friend to stop being a bitch.
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That has like little to no bearing on my actual argument. Shown to be a badass doesn't erase how he's treated by the writers of the show or by the other characters. One positive doesn't erase a negative. Life is made of good things and bad things, remember? And none of them cancels the other out.
Also, the last series out of how many of them being together? The whole point is that you saw more out of one season with each of 10's companions than you did in the multiple seasons with the Ponds. The entire goodbye to the Ponds was slapdash with rushed character development that was hollow for the most part.
But sure. The overarching treatment of Amy and Rory is ghastly compared to how Rose and Mickey were treated. Or how Martha was treated. Or how Donna was treated. We can debate that until the cows come home.
I'm not saying the show or the characters are extremely sexist or that you can't enjoy it. I'm saying to be aware of what the writing does. There's more to it than 'wham bam Doctor man got us in trouble and now we're out of trouble'. The lines have meanings. The intent behind the words are important.
Rory isn't even the brunt of my argument. I thought that was clear. If anything he's just a footnote. My main problem has been and always shall be the treatment of the women. Footnotes and extra information just adds to the whole 'it isn't a one-off thing'.
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I spose one could see where Moffat's writing could come off as sexist, looking back on it. Though, if you ask me, its not overt, "MEN BE BETTER THAN WIMMN BECAUSE PENIS" so much as it is likely subconscious baggage a lot of us got hangin about. Could be wrong, there's always that chance, tis just how I see it.
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Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
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I cant see the sexism, no matter how many shades of retard glasses i slip on
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Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
To be fair, at least Martha eventually gave up on that chase; instead making the sensible decision to be his friend, while looking for love somewhere else. Honestly, I don't think Amy really loved the Doctor, as was said earlier, she came across more like a horny fangirl with conflicting ideals that, by the time she actually became a companion, didn't really know what, exactly, she wanted.
And, this might be stupid as hell, but bear with me...I found that kinda refreshing. It shows that sexual tension can be entirely from one side of the field and that a woman can be just as incorrigible a horndog as any man can be. For fuck's sake, she tried to nail the Doctor in her own bedroom on the night before her wedding. She's a horny fuck, and I like that; I like women that aren't afraid to show their sexuality in the slightest.
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I spose one could see where Moffat's writing could come off as sexist, looking back on it. Though, if you ask me, its not overt, "MEN BE BETTER THAN WIMMN BECAUSE PENIS" so much as it is likely subconscious baggage a lot of us got hangin about. Could be wrong, there's always that chance, tis just how I see it.
I know. That's what I've been trying to say. It isn't overt and in your face but it is there. In a higher quantity than in other shows. And in a show that the classic version was a lot more progressive than it is now. Why is that? That's a problem. I know comparing Classic Who to Current Who has a lot of problems, but you have to admit something happened between then and when Moffat took the reins.
Though I do appreciate you can see that what I'm talking about isn't something I pulled out of thin air.
Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.
Martha Jones is a fucking star.
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Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
To be fair, at least Martha eventually gave up on that chase; instead making the sensible decision to be his friend, while looking for love somewhere else. Honestly, I don't think Amy really loved the Doctor, as was said earlier, she came across more like a horny fangirl with conflicting ideals that, by the time she actually became a companion, didn't really know what, exactly, she wanted.
And, this might be stupid as hell, but bear with me...I found that kinda refreshing. It shows that sexual tension can be entirely from one side of the field and that a woman can be just as incorrigible a horndog as any man can be. For fuck's sake, she tried to nail the Doctor in her own bedroom on the night before her wedding. She's a horny fuck, and I like that; I like women that aren't afraid to show their sexuality in the slightest.
It's not stupid. In fact, that's the exact opposite of being sexist. Showing a woman who is openly sexual and is willing to use that and flaunt it and not give a fuck what people think.
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Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.
Martha Jones is a fucking star.
Never said the character was completely shit, I'm not really big on the whole "companion romace" thing that New Who is doing but it really annoyed me how obvious they made it for her. At least she wasn't Rose.
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I'll throw in my two cents on this, because I've had a lot of issues with the writing since Moffat took over, the subconscious sexism only being a part of it.
A lot of the bad writing I think can be less attributed to overt sexism, and more attributed to Moffat hijacking the Doctor as his own personal wish-fulfillment alpha male avatar. Starting with "The Eleventh Hour", the focus of the show shifted heavily into the realm of "Look how awesome the Doctor is, everyone love and praise him!"
I mean, look at the introductory episodes for Rose, Martha, and Donna. Each of them opens with a lengthy segment following each woman on her daily routine and home life. The Doctor often doesn't show up until at least 10 minutes into these episodes. By that time, the companion as a person has already been established, independent of her relationship to the Doctor, and the remainder of the episode focuses on how her life changes upon meeting the Doctor. Upon meeting the Doctor, the companion demonstrates initiative by saving the Doctor without needing to be instructed, and her actions impress upon him and he asks her to come along.
Move on to "The Eleventh Hour". The Doctor is the first person we see in this episode, and we only ever see Amy when he interacts with her. Who was Amy before she met the Doctor? What did she like to do? We only get her characterization through quick bits of offhand exposition rather than actually experiencing these things for ourselves. Throughout the remainder of the episode, Amy completely lacks agency. All she does is follow the Doctor around. The day is saved because the Doctor tells everyone else what to do and they do it. They're all just agents of his will. In the end, the Doctor takes her along not because he's interested in her as a person, but because he's curious about the crack in her wall and the effects it's had on her.
Move on to "The Bells of St. John", and Clara fares a bit better. We at least see her interacting with other people and going about her daily business outside of the Doctor's influence, however briefly. She also manages to show initiative by hacking the wifi network and finding the evil hideout. However, the Doctor still primarily takes her along because she's a "mystery", not because of her as a person. Thankfully Neill Cross picked up a lot of Moffat's slack in "The Rings of Akhaten" and greatly fleshed out Clara as an independent character.
And then there's River who, again, doesn't hold the Doctor's interest because of who she is as a person, but because of the mystery surrounding her. Davies' Doctors obviously cared about their companions as people, but Moffat's Doctor just sees them as puzzles to be solved, and once he's got them figured out, then they're only good for following him around and praising him.
There's also the problem that Moffat's companions aren't allowed to have any jobs or interests that don't directly relate to being a woman or pleasing a man. Amy is a kissogram, a model, a wife, a uterus to create River Song. Clara is a barmaid, a governess, a nanny. Clara at least has a (stated) interest in travel.
Also notice how the Davies vs. Moffat companions dress. Rose was often sporting fancy make-up and hair, but her clothing was usually downright frumpy. Her first two episodes had her in sweatpants and a hoodie, and after that she was almost always in jeans or slacks. Martha and Donna were the same. It wasn't until Amy and Clara that the companions decided that heels and a mini-skirt were optimal dress for traveling the universe.
Then there's the Moffat-era women's ubiquitous obsession with the Doctor. As I mentioned, this is partially sexism, but mostly Moffat just using the Doctor as his own wish-fulfillment avatar. His Doctor is the guy who struts around everywhere, beating all his enemies on reputation alone by giving big speeches about how badass he is without having to do anything to actually prove it, who has women falling over him left and right, who has men grumbling and shuffling their feet around him because they can't be that awesome, and who never has to learn from his mistakes.
And that's what I think really bothers me about Moffat's themes instead of Davies. The main theme of Davies' era was how the Doctor influenced the people around him to be stronger and better themselves. When the characters give long monologues, it's often about how the Doctor has shown them how much more there is to life, such as Rose in "The Parting of the Ways" or Donna in "Partners in Crime" or even Elton in "Love and Monsters".
Contrast to Moffat, and the side characters all seem to be in a race for who can be the most obsessed and devoted to the Doctor, at the expense of everything else. Played up to the extreme when River was willing to sacrifice the universe for the Doctor's sake in "The Wedding of River Song". Female characters especially love to give long, doting monologues on how amazing the Doctor is. This idea of the Doctor tempting people to throw away everything for his sake was played out egregiously at the end of "The Angels Take Manhattan" when the Doctor takes it as a given that Amy will abandon Rory to his fate and come with him instead, and has a complete breakdown when she refuses (it's telling that he warns her "If you go, I will never see you again", implying that he believes he is the most important thing to her).
This idea that the Doctor is the most importentest thing in the entire universe is seen in all three of Moffat's season finales. Unlike Davies' finales, we never really see what effect the conflict is having on anything outside of the immediate main cast. Davies had Daleks wiping out all the humans on a space station, the Cybermen breaking into homes, the Master wiping out 1/10th of the world's population and taking it over, the Daleks rounding up people and experimenting on them. In "The Big Bang", the Doctor just offhandedly mentions that the rest of the universe and humanity is gone and they're all that's left, but you wouldn't have known that if he hadn't told you because no issue is made of it. The primary conflict is "Oh noes, the Doctor can save the universe, but he'll be wiped from existence! The Doctor or the universe, that's a hard choice!" In "The Wedding of River Song", the universe gets thrown out of whack, but nobody seems particularly bothered by it other than, "Huh, this isn't right." But the primary conflict is, "Oh noes, the Doctor can save the universe, but he'll die! The Doctor or the universe, that's a hard choice!" And then in "The Name of the Doctor", this trope almost goes meta when the main focus again is on the safety of the Doctor, and Vastra belatedly runs outside just to exclaim, "Oh yeah, and the rest of the universe is ending, too. But that's not as important as OMG THE DOCTOR!"
To end this excessively long post, I'll just sum up with: While it's true that sexist tropes are more prevalent in Moffat's era over Davies', the female characters' excessive submissiveness, obedience, and clinginess can be more readily explained by the Doctor's promotion to masculine godhood.
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^ So you think Moffat uses 11 like a Mary Sue... That's an interesting possibility. Never really thought about it that way.
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To end this excessively long post, I'll just sum up with: While it's true that sexist tropes are more prevalent in Moffat's era over Davies', the female characters' excessive submissiveness, obedience, and clinginess can be more readily explained by the Doctor's promotion to masculine godhood.
Amy was clingy, but she is also the first companion who's life has literally revolved around the Doctor. She met him as a young girl and he was basically her life from that point on. We see on multiple occasions how the Doctor regrets this yet does nothing to change it. We see the Doctor being quite selfish in that regard. In the end however Amy and Rory do have their own life, without the Doctor. The Doctor can't stand losing Amy and Rory because they meant everything to him. He does care for them as people.
Submissive and obedience are not words that describe Amy Pond. She stands up for herself, and up to the Doctor very well. Was self confident enough in herself to save a creature the Doctor was about to kill. Survives 30 year alone, helps lead the resistance in a world where time is happening all at once.
Than you has River Song. Yes, she loves the Doctor, becomes his wife and would risk time itself to save him. All the does not equate to sexism. She also challenges him when needed, and manipulates him when needed. She gets the guns, uses them, and gives not a fuck what the Doctor thinks about it. The Doctor also loves River, even after he finds out who she is. The Doctor loves her, not any type of mystery.
Clara we see as having feminine jobs, if you want to call caring for children feminine. She is also very good at it. She ultimately saves the Doctor and the universe, something other companions have done. While on that journey we see her take charge of soldiers and leads them competently.
The Doctor is the main character of the show, and Moffat writes with the idea he is the most important person in the universe. Moffat also makes it very clear that the Doctor needs his companions. I don't think you can point out one Moffat episode where the Doctor is victorious without their help.
Plus Moffat has also give us two other very strong female characters, Madam Vastra and Jenny. Openly gay women living in Victorian London who both kick major ass.
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Clara saved the Doctor's life several times. In fact, he had to beg her to let him save her. I thought that was pretty cool.
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m52nickerson makes pretty much the same points I would have made, but there's one important thing to remember: The Doctor IS the most important person in the universe. He's the last of the Time Lords. Not only is he tied to just about every major event ever, but he's also the last Time Lord. The last owner of a TARDIS. He literally is the most important person, because before, he was but one of a race of godlike beings, and a rather low class one at that. Now? He's the only one. It's the difference between the Greek Gods and The Bible. The Doctor has gone from one extremely powerful being to the only one. He is literally above everyone else. The Doctor is better than you. That goes for everyone else. You need The Doctor alive because without him, nobody can stop all the time traveling threats or all the bad shit that isn't a fixed point. Think of it like this: if you put all Kryptonians on a planet with a yellow sun, they're all equal, and the power of law and order is still there. Sure, they all have Superman's powers, but the good ones can beat the bad ones because of that. Now, get rid of all but one. Now, he's special. If he goes bad, nothing can stop him. If he's good, no matter what you throw at him, it's gonna get solved. Same idea. The Doctor is Superman.
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^ Pretty much, yep.
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Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.
Martha Jones is a fucking star.
Never said the character was completely shit, I'm not really big on the whole "companion romace" thing that New Who is doing but it really annoyed me how obvious they made it for her. At least she wasn't Rose.
I was only refuting what you were talking about. Namely, 1) that she pined after the Doctor like a dog in heat and 2) the doubt that she was treated better than Amy. Which she was.
As for everyone else we're gonna have to agree to disagree that the Doctor can't be held responsible for his attitude towards his companions. Even though it was really shitty for Rose to tell him, point blank, that even tho the other Time Lords are gone she's still around.
Also, please bear in mind Time Lord is a title, not a race.
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A lot of the bad writing I think can be less attributed to overt sexism, and more attributed to Moffat hijacking the Doctor as his own personal wish-fulfillment alpha male avatar. Starting with "The Eleventh Hour", the focus of the show shifted heavily into the realm of "Look how awesome the Doctor is, everyone love and praise him!"
Thinking about this more it is ridiculous to say that Moffat is using the Doctor as his own male avatar. He is the show runner and the head writer but that does not mean the characters he writes are reflections of himself. We also see more of Amy's life than any other companion. Yes, she becomes infatuated with the Doctor but ultimately she picks Rory. We also see her faith in the Doctor almost be her downfall.
Now as far as the Doctor being a god like figure, well he is to a lot of people. He is also not as much of a badass as he thinks he is. When it looks as if he turned a whole universe of enemies away with only a threat he really did not. It was a trap, a trap he fell into because he was to sure of himself. In fact we see that more than once where the Doctor's own ego get people hurt. Rory even calls him out on this.
The Doctor, Amy, Rory and the rest are not perfect, they have flaws...and that is what makes them interesting.
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Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"
1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.
Martha Jones is a fucking star.
Never said the character was completely shit, I'm not really big on the whole "companion romace" thing that New Who is doing but it really annoyed me how obvious they made it for her. At least she wasn't Rose.
I was only refuting what you were talking about. Namely, 1) that she pined after the Doctor like a dog in heat and 2) the doubt that she was treated better than Amy. Which she was.
As for everyone else we're gonna have to agree to disagree that the Doctor can't be held responsible for his attitude towards his companions. Even though it was really shitty for Rose to tell him, point blank, that even tho the other Time Lords are gone she's still around.
Also, please bear in mind Time Lord is a title, not a race.
Martha was not treated better than Amy, whether by the writers or by The Doctor. The Doctor was too emo to pay much attention to her, and only really respected her after she saved the world. Additionally, Martha did pretty much just pine for The Doctor. That was the point of her character, that he wouldn't love her. Amy moved on without leaving, got over it, and matured as a person. Martha barely got any development until the end. The Ponds matured, changed and badassed it up over time. As for the last part, even the writers can't decide there. At this point, I feel the correct answer to "Is "Time Lord" a race or title?" is "Yes".
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I'm not sure we watched the same Martha Jones, then. I already pointed out multiple bullet points about how she grew and was shown she was her own person in the first few minutes of seeing her in the show.
And Time Lord is definitely a title. Gallifreyan is the race. The Doctor is the last of the Time Lords but nothing has been said about him being the last of the Gallifreyans.
Besides, remember how long we were told he was the last of the Time Lords until the Master reappeared?
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I'm not sure we watched the same Martha Jones, then. I already pointed out multiple bullet points about how she grew and was shown she was her own person in the first few minutes of seeing her in the show.
And Time Lord is definitely a title. Gallifreyan is the race. The Doctor is the last of the Time Lords but nothing has been said about him being the last of the Gallifreyans.
Besides, remember how long we were told he was the last of the Time Lords until the Master reappeared?
She was shown as her own character, but she didn't really change in my eyes, until the Year That Never Was. And, at some point in canon, it definitely was. At some point in canon, it definitely wasn't. At this point in canon, it's murky as shit. Also, that's like with Buffy. She's the "Chosen One", the "only" Slayer. Things went wonky and unplanned shit happened, so now there's two. The Doctor didn't know whatever he did only would effect Time Lords/Gallifreyans that weren't Arched. So he missed at least one. Honestly, I'd like to see it turn out that there's an entire "human" colony world in the future that's ALL Arched Time Lords, because partially, it'd be funny and a unique and easy way to bring them back.
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So...
A lot of the arguments used to defend the "Eleven is sexist!" theme sound to me more like arguments to say "Eleven is much more of a dickhead than other doctors with his companions!". Which is... true, in a way. He doesn't treat women worse, he treats everyone worse. The fact that most of his companions are female is what makes it seem worse.
As for the "doctor as wish-fullfillment-mary-sue" thing... Again, heh.... kinda. True, the eleventh uses and abuse his reputation and the image of the doctor as this awesome godly character, almost a force of nature, but the central conflict of the silence was that he abused that image so much that it was coming back to bite him in the ass, and that the best choice was to lay low and stop doing that! The eleventh is full of himself, and while he uses his arrogance like a weapon, we are shown that it leads to a lot more problems down the line.
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Exactly. Eleven is supposed to be full of himself, childish and overconfident. Part of this is likely because everyone was sick of The Emo Doctor and wanted a Time Lord that reflected exactly how everyone would feel towards traveling in time and space. He has depth, and at least some of his personality is specifically meant to keep people out, because he doesn't want to be hurt again. Honestly, there's a lot more depth to his dickery than people give them credit for. He's not just a dick, he's intentionally a dick, because after the last few companions, he doesn't want to be hurt more. He doesn't want to get close to someone only to lose them, as he's done so many times. So he is rude and insulting to them all, because he thinks it will make them not want to be around him. He doesn't just stop inviting people onboard the TARDIS because he needs to have a companion. This boils over after losing Amy and Rory, and he completely cuts off contact and stops adventuring, because he was even more deadset on it never, ever, ever happening again. Then, when he meets Clara, he sees a chance to make up for his past failure, and then his second failure with her. He's driven by not just discovery, but guilt that he couldn't save her before. He has a hero complex, and a need to save others. He always has, but it's on full display with Eleven. He's attracted to broken people, because he wants to help them and save them.
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Exactly. Eleven is supposed to be full of himself, childish and overconfident. Part of this is likely because everyone was sick of The Emo Doctor and wanted a Time Lord that reflected exactly how everyone would feel towards traveling in time and space. He has depth, and at least some of his personality is specifically meant to keep people out, because he doesn't want to be hurt again. Honestly, there's a lot more depth to his dickery than people give them credit for. He's not just a dick, he's intentionally a dick, because after the last few companions, he doesn't want to be hurt more. He doesn't want to get close to someone only to lose them, as he's done so many times. So he is rude and insulting to them all, because he thinks it will make them not want to be around him. He doesn't just stop inviting people onboard the TARDIS because he needs to have a companion. This boils over after losing Amy and Rory, and he completely cuts off contact and stops adventuring, because he was even more deadset on it never, ever, ever happening again. Then, when he meets Clara, he sees a chance to make up for his past failure, and then his second failure with her. He's driven by not just discovery, but guilt that he couldn't save her before. He has a hero complex, and a need to save others. He always has, but it's on full display with Eleven. He's attracted to broken people, because he wants to help them and save them.
White Knight Syndrome, I like to call it. Its one of the reasons I like Eleven, he tries to protect everyone to the point its a rather serious flaw. Then, it boils over and even when he manages to take down an entire army without a single drop of blood spilled, in the end, it still bites him in the arse.
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Exactly. Eleven is supposed to be full of himself, childish and overconfident. Part of this is likely because everyone was sick of The Emo Doctor and wanted a Time Lord that reflected exactly how everyone would feel towards traveling in time and space. He has depth, and at least some of his personality is specifically meant to keep people out, because he doesn't want to be hurt again. Honestly, there's a lot more depth to his dickery than people give them credit for. He's not just a dick, he's intentionally a dick, because after the last few companions, he doesn't want to be hurt more. He doesn't want to get close to someone only to lose them, as he's done so many times. So he is rude and insulting to them all, because he thinks it will make them not want to be around him. He doesn't just stop inviting people onboard the TARDIS because he needs to have a companion. This boils over after losing Amy and Rory, and he completely cuts off contact and stops adventuring, because he was even more deadset on it never, ever, ever happening again. Then, when he meets Clara, he sees a chance to make up for his past failure, and then his second failure with her. He's driven by not just discovery, but guilt that he couldn't save her before. He has a hero complex, and a need to save others. He always has, but it's on full display with Eleven. He's attracted to broken people, because he wants to help them and save them.
White Knight Syndrome, I like to call it. Its one of the reasons I like Eleven, he tries to protect everyone to the point its a rather serious flaw. Then, it boils over and even when he manages to take down an entire army without a single drop of blood spilled, in the end, it still bites him in the arse.
Yeah, and I admit, I relate to him because of that, and it makes me like him more. I pretty much do try to help everyone, and have openly admitted one of the things that attracts me is someone being broken in some way.
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^Ditto for me too. Really in some way shape or form, he's shown damage since Nine. It was just in different ways. Nine was broody, depressed, and angry, Ten wanted to believe he was ten feet tall and bulletproof, and Eleven wants to help, but doesn't want to get too close for fear of being hurt again. The Time War must have indeed been hell on him.
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^Ditto for me too. Really in some way shape or form, he's shown damage since Nine. It was just in different ways. Nine was broody, depressed, and angry, Ten wanted to believe he was ten feet tall and bulletproof, and Eleven wants to help, but doesn't want to get too close for fear of being hurt again. The Time War must have indeed been hell on him.
Yeah. Eleven not only has the Time War, but all the crap Nine and Ten went through.