FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Askold on July 16, 2017, 02:07:49 am
-
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/07/guns-are-fine-racism-is-not-armed-redneck-lefties-are-waging-a-different-kind-of-war-on-fascism/
(http://2d0yaz2jiom3c6vy7e7e5svk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/John-Brown-Gun-Club.png)
Rednecks with guns, yes but these guys are mainly leftists and oppose racism.
“People need to be able to defend themselves. [We] live in a country in the world where people of color and LGBTQ people are routinely victimized and systematically victimized by the people who claim to be there for their defense,” a Pittsburgh, PA Redneck Revolt organizer named Shaun told Shadowproof. We provide free basic firearms training to pretty much everyone who needs it. We focus on trying to provide [self-defense training] when asked for [by] communities of color and LGBTQ folks.”
Interesting. I was kinda expecting news like this as guns are so common in USA that it was unlikely that only Right-wingers have them.
It's also interesting to see if NRA turns on these guys and GOP suddenly starts to promote gun control as a way to disarm leftists and minorities...
-
It seems I was incorrect about rednecks.
-
So, kind of a white black panthers?
Yeah, there was a punk rock subculture a while ago calling themselves "rednecks" which is different to the racist kind with some links to the psychobillies. I think some of the Redneck Revolt guys have also been involved in anti racist skinhead movements like RASH and SHARP.
-
Considering that I've seen a left wing Youtuber calling himself "The Liberal Red Neck" using his platform to argue for left wing causes with a deep south accent and enjoying trucks and hunting, this doesn't surprise me all that much.
-
Some of the pictures of the old Young Patriot Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Patriots_Organization) on the Redneck Revolt website (https://www.redneckrevolt.org/single-post/2009/12/05/YOUNG-PATRIOTS-AND-PANTHERS-A-STORY-OF-WHITE-ANTIRACISM) are pretty incredible.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c1543a_3d2f7053bf16426cb78b9696ae790500~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_875,h_515,al_c,q_85/c1543a_3d2f7053bf16426cb78b9696ae790500~mv2.webp)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c1543a_de98f29de3f741a393393d134593ff00~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_360,h_515,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/c1543a_de98f29de3f741a393393d134593ff00~mv2.webp)
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/c1543a_e3778a985c80456184138a5d511def58~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_426,h_377,al_c,lg_1,q_80/c1543a_e3778a985c80456184138a5d511def58~mv2.webp)
-
California used to have an open carry law, thanks to NRA lobbying.
Then the Black Panthers started openly carrying guns.
The NRA was instrumental in repealing California's open carry law.
-
Well shit, something worthwhile came out of the redneck subculture, after all. I am legitimately surprised, and pleasantly so.
-
Yeah, I've read about this group a while ago. Ideologically, they are pretty much average anarchists who just happen to live in rural communities instead of cities. The main difference between an anarchist in here, for example, and these guys is the influence of the American gun culture. While I disagree on their stance on guns in principle, I understand where they are coming from since in the American context the way the legal system is applied in practice is very much imbalanced against the lower classes and minorities. I understand the fear that a potential tighter gun regulation would end up transferring more power away from the poor communities specially when you take into account the the anarchists' general distrust of the system.
-
That's some windowlicking shit right there.
I mean superficially it makes sense, pro-gun people are usually pretty well acquainted with the concept of armed revolt against the government. But then you add in "pro-worker" and "anti-capitalist", basically buzzwords for communist activists.
Protip chaps, you don't get to be pro-gun in a communist state. You get disarmed, then if you complain you get disappeared. If the state is supposedly a workers collective, advocating the violent overthrow of it makes you an enemy of the people kinda by definition. Who cares if the party stops representing the people and instead starts repressing them? It's too fucking late by that point...
I know your education system is fucked over there, but have you seriously broken your teaching of 20th century history that badly?
-
I mean superficially it makes sense, pro-gun people are usually pretty well acquainted with the concept of armed revolt against the government. But then you add in "pro-worker" and "anti-capitalist", basically buzzwords for communist activists.
Actually, it tends to mean socialist nowadays. This isn't the 1970's, after all.
Come to think of it, I haven't even heard of any communist activists in decades. It's my hope that even the stupidest lefties have figured out that in practice it's just the flavour of propaganda you get in an otherwise bog standard dictatorship. Unlikely, I know. Betting against human stupidity in any area is generally a bad move, but I feel like a bit of optimism is nice every now and again.
-
Come to think of it, I haven't even heard of any communist activists in decades.
There are still a few diehards clinging on. They tend to show up at rallies, but I don't think I've seen more than two or three at a time.
-
They've also largely blended with the anarchists these days.
-
@lord gibbon:
Did you mean with idiots?
There are those of us who realize that anarchocommunism is every bit as stupid and dangerous as anarchocapitalism.
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
-
Like, I have my misgivings about democracy and some...what some might call strange ideas about the role of government, but even I realize that the answer isn't to either put a stranglehold on everything (totalitarianism) or just outright abolish law and order (anarchy). There's a fucking medium and it can be found, it just needs time.
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
Meh, that's just the sales pitch.
It's basically analogous when a detatchment of Jehovas Witnesses come to your door showing you brightly coloured artwork of what heaven looks like.
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
And the best bit is if you observe the people telling you that modern leftism is nothing like Stalin and Mao, and all that stuff is just [insert no true scotsman fallacy here], you begin to see those people display the same authoritarian tendecies, the desires to crush and silence dissenting viewpoints and the constant attempts to purge the ideologically impure.
It's fun to watch as an outsider, ideally I'd like to keep you all in an ant farm so I could watch it happen and not have you anywhere near anything with actual political influence.
-
Oh gawd, it's the "they want public utilities-next step the gulag" speech. Beware the public lending library, it's but a facade hiding a massive salt mine!
-
"Have you now or have you ever been a member of the Brisbane City Council Lending Library?"
-
Daily reminder that Joseph McCarthy offered his service as a lawyer to literal Nazis.
And yeah the slippery slope fallacy is still a fallacy, but then its always been the case that for conservatives, anything to the left is automatically suspicious, in part because it entails a world view that doesn't fear their eternally disapproving sky daddy.
-
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
So then, how exactly did the Nordics themselves come to exist in the first place? I mean, if going from halfway decent public services to literal death camps is indeed inevitable, then surely the Scandinavian countries should be totalitarian hellholes to rival North Korea, Saudi Arabia or Myanmar, right?
-
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
So then, how exactly did the Nordics themselves come to exist in the first place? I mean, if going from halfway decent public services to literal death camps is indeed inevitable, then surely the Scandinavian countries should be totalitarian hellholes to rival North Korea, Saudi Arabia or Myanmar, right?
Finnish people don't exist, they're a propaganda campaign by North Korea to fool simple people living in free nations like Russia, the UK, and Jesus-Land (colloquially known as "America").
-
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
So then, how exactly did the Nordics themselves come to exist in the first place? I mean, if going from halfway decent public services to literal death camps is indeed inevitable, then surely the Scandinavian countries should be totalitarian hellholes to rival North Korea, Saudi Arabia or Myanmar, right?
I can tell you one thing, Social Democrat societies don't arise from Marxists-who-claim-not-to-be-Marxists telling you that they're just looking to provide public services.
Here's a fun little example:
John McDonnell, Labour party exemplar going on national TV, describes himself as a socialist, denies his Marxism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68a9mMWJBc
Then later appears at a nice "socialist" rally with totally not Marxist Hammers and Sickles
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/1/2017/05/05/10/wire-517277-1493976268-79_634x356.jpg)
So the pattern is clear, you can chat all the Social Democrat pleasantries you like, but if you then go on to flaunt your communist credentials it gives the game away. You can call it a slippery slope if you like, but if the slope is there and is covered in Marxist soap suds, you can't deny the reality of it.
-
That doesn't even come close to answering my question.
-
That doesn't even come close to answering my question.
Shut up Commie!
-
Contrarian, if the social Democrats always do an Ultron-like shift into giant fire breathing Stalin robots, then why has every communist revolutionary of the 20th century been a die-hard communist who rejected western style social democracy? Lenin was annoyed with trade unions and traditional socialists because they were all obsessed with what he considered petty issues like working conditions and wages. His "Vanguard of the "Proletariat" was his way of saying that they couldn't be trusted get their shit together. Mao campaigned as communist so did Che Guevara. The North Korean party was planted there by the Soviet union and every anti commies favorite bugbear, Pol Pot, was so fucking radical the Viet Cong thought he was nuts! These were not people who started campaigning with "lets get some safe spaces and healthcare going guyyyss, everyone be cool mannn..."
-
That doesn't even come close to answering my question.
Shut up Commie!
The Freedom-Squirrel speaks truth, crackers.
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
Meh, that's just the sales pitch.
It's basically analogous when a detatchment of Jehovas Witnesses come to your door showing you brightly coloured artwork of what heaven looks like.
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
There's no actual evidence for this of course, but since when do Tories lower themselves to these silly prole "facts"?
-
Contrarian, if the social Democrats always do an Ultron-like shift into giant fire breathing Stalin robots, then why has every communist revolutionary of the 20th century been a die-hard communist who rejected western style social democracy? Lenin was annoyed with trade unions and traditional socialists because they were all obsessed with what he considered petty issues like working conditions and wages. His "Vanguard of the "Proletariat" was his way of saying that they couldn't be trusted get their shit together. Mao campaigned as communist so did Che Guevara. The North Korean party was planted there by the Soviet union and every anti commies favorite bugbear, Pol Pot, was so fucking radical the Viet Cong thought he was nuts! These were not people who started campaigning with "lets get some safe spaces and healthcare going guyyyss, everyone be cool mannn..."
The key flaw in your assumption as that these people were ever social democrats to start with. If your "traditional socialists" don't mix well with actual Marxists then surely we should be just a mite suspicious about someone who publicly proclaims his socialist credentials but then turns out to be a hammer and sickle waving Leninist? It just reinforces my point that there's a fucking sinister undercurrent to all of this and if you believe the public persona these fucks are putting on, then they're playing you like a fiddle.
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
Meh, that's just the sales pitch.
It's basically analogous when a detatchment of Jehovas Witnesses come to your door showing you brightly coloured artwork of what heaven looks like.
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
There's no actual evidence for this of course, but since when do Tories lower themselves to these silly prole "facts"?
Oh look it's commubot. Here to regale us with more tales of Venezuela's prosperity and decry the ebul Tories and the massive and totally fictional recession they've caused, no doubt.
I mean it's a nice touch having a socialist version of cleverbot running on the forum, it's funny and topical in a "Fake News"-y kind of way, but it could do with some tuning as the stuff its spouting seems to be at a 180 degree variance from observable reality.
-
Speaking of observable reality, you've still yet to explain how the existence of the Nordics and their perfectly functional democratic socialist governments is a thing according to your world view.
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
Meh, that's just the sales pitch.
It's basically analogous when a detatchment of Jehovas Witnesses come to your door showing you brightly coloured artwork of what heaven looks like.
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
There's no actual evidence for this of course, but since when do Tories lower themselves to these silly prole "facts"?
Oh look it's commubot. Here to regale us with more tales of Venezuela's prosperity and decry the ebul Tories and the massive and totally fictional recession they've caused, no doubt.
I mean it's a nice touch having a socialist version of cleverbot running on the forum, it's funny and topical in a "Fake News"-y kind of way, but it could do with some tuning as the stuff its spouting seems to be at a 180 degree variance from observable reality.
That's nice. No actual evidence though I see, which is, I'm sure, the result of some regrettable memory lapse.
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
Meh, that's just the sales pitch.
It's basically analogous when a detatchment of Jehovas Witnesses come to your door showing you brightly coloured artwork of what heaven looks like.
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
There's no actual evidence for this of course, but since when do Tories lower themselves to these silly prole "facts"?
Oh look it's commubot. Here to regale us with more tales of Venezuela's prosperity and decry the ebul Tories and the massive and totally fictional recession they've caused, no doubt.
I mean it's a nice touch having a socialist version of cleverbot running on the forum, it's funny and topical in a "Fake News"-y kind of way, but it could do with some tuning as the stuff its spouting seems to be at a 180 degree variance from observable reality.
That's nice. No actual evidence though I see, which is, I'm sure, the result of some regrettable memory lapse.
Evidence of what, you claiming that the Tories drove the country into a recession when this clearly isn't the case?
This must be very difficult for the Contrarian. His party drove the country into recession and played footsie with the racist right to hold government - a decision that caused catastrophe. And now a resurgent firmly left-wing Labour has crushed them horribly in an election they arrogantly thought they had in the bag. The public doesn't want any more of his ignorant thieving bullshit any more. Thatcherism is dead. The public killed it at the ballot box. Everything he believes is wrong and has always been wrong.
Read the above. Now, sentient beings with the ability to do two seconds of research would realise that the UK economy hasn't been in recession for almost 8 years now. So you're either a liar, an idiot with a very tenuous grasp on reality, or a poorly programmed commubot. Which is it?
-
There are communists i n Finland at least. Not many and they have several political parties because tbey can't stand each other. The fall of USSR caused a lot of ideological splits.
Nowadays leftists are mainly in the "Nordic democracy seems awesome let's go back to that" and generally they are not in support of a communist state.
Meh, that's just the sales pitch.
It's basically analogous when a detatchment of Jehovas Witnesses come to your door showing you brightly coloured artwork of what heaven looks like.
"See how wonderful these Nordics are, we should be like them!" they say, so you sign up and only too late do you realise that you've joined a sadistic cult that controls every aspect of your life and enforces your conformity with dire threats against you and your family.
There's no actual evidence for this of course, but since when do Tories lower themselves to these silly prole "facts"?
Oh look it's commubot. Here to regale us with more tales of Venezuela's prosperity and decry the ebul Tories and the massive and totally fictional recession they've caused, no doubt.
I mean it's a nice touch having a socialist version of cleverbot running on the forum, it's funny and topical in a "Fake News"-y kind of way, but it could do with some tuning as the stuff its spouting seems to be at a 180 degree variance from observable reality.
That's nice. No actual evidence though I see, which is, I'm sure, the result of some regrettable memory lapse.
Evidence of what, (red herring omitted)?
That social democrats and moderate socialists are just the "sales pitch" for Stalinism, that nobody believes we should imitate the Nordic countries economic model. For instance, this includes me.
-
Speaking of observable reality, you've still yet to explain how the existence of the Nordics and their perfectly functional democratic socialist governments is a thing according to your world view.
Listen Mr. "Scientists" with your "observations" and your "facts" ...
-
Contrarian, if the social Democrats always do an Ultron-like shift into giant fire breathing Stalin robots, then why has every communist revolutionary of the 20th century been a die-hard communist who rejected western style social democracy? Lenin was annoyed with trade unions and traditional socialists because they were all obsessed with what he considered petty issues like working conditions and wages. His "Vanguard of the "Proletariat" was his way of saying that they couldn't be trusted get their shit together. Mao campaigned as communist so did Che Guevara. The North Korean party was planted there by the Soviet union and every anti commies favorite bugbear, Pol Pot, was so fucking radical the Viet Cong thought he was nuts! These were not people who started campaigning with "lets get some safe spaces and healthcare going guyyyss, everyone be cool mannn..."
The key flaw in your assumption as that these people were ever social democrats to start with. If your "traditional socialists" don't mix well with actual Marxists then surely we should be just a mite suspicious about someone who publicly proclaims his socialist credentials but then turns out to be a hammer and sickle waving Leninist? It just reinforces my point that there's a fucking sinister undercurrent to all of this and if you believe the public persona these fucks are putting on, then they're playing you like a fiddle.
Yeah, we had International Socialists in uni. We also had the Socialist Party. Hammers, sickles, red yeah, yellow stars, yeah. Stalinists they aint, even Leninists is pretty bloody doubtful. About to convince Australia to toss off their beach towels, turn off the cricket and storm the houses of parliament? You're bloody dreaming!
Only the Spartacists were dyed-in the wool, hard nosed IRL commies and all the other socialist factions thought they were nuts. I nearly died laughing when one of it's few holdovers, an earnest chap who looked more well suited to a Baptist prayer group, was patiently trying to explain the concept of Deformed Worker States to me.
Marxism definitely has a more left wing, social democratic strand in the west and it's proved more durable to the passage of time than the communist old guard precisely because most left wing people, including the IS and SP members, don't want to live in a Stalinist state! Even the Sparts call those Deformed. Relax grandad, they're undergraduates-not the Khmer Rouge. Calm down!
-
Of course, there's also the fact that conflating Communism with Stalinism is a tad bit disingenuous. Yeah, Communism does certainly allow for certain...unscrupulous people to be at the helm assuming they establish a cult of personality and crush dissent early on like Stalin and the Kim dynasty. But, at its heart, the entire point isn't for one madman to be in charge; the entire point, if you ask me, is that no one person is left behind. No matter who we are or in what kind of society we live, even one in total anarchy, we're all cogs in the societal machine. Communism tries to even the load between all said cogs; as the saying goes, "a burden shared is a burden divided." Of course, there's inherent flaws in that philosophy as it doesn't quite mesh with the more individualistic cultures, especially those in the more advanced, well-to-do nations.
Hell, one could argue our entire tax structure here in the States is Communistic. After all, part of its purpose is to redistribute wealth to sectors that ostensibly need it, like infrastructure maintenance, education, and law enforcement. Its pretty much an established fact that we're rather shit at doing it properly, but that doesn't change its purpose, even if it doesn't entirely keep within the spirit of the thing.
-
I know I'm probably gonna regret feeding the troll, but screw it.
Contrarian, there's a world of difference between being skeptical or critical of socialism, and thinking all its adherents are closet Stalinists. If you have evidence for this claim, why don't you show us?
-
Which all goes to show that socialism, communism, Marxism, democracy are all complex concepts in their own right and a few red flags behind a member of the very un-radical British Labour party shouldn't frighten grandad into thinking that they're a scary vanguard of red guards who'll force him to pay his telly license and redistribute his splendid stove-pipe hat into little felt rags amongst uncultured chavs who'll do unspeakable things to the unjustly communalised shreds.
Conty, stop fretting. You'll be fine!