Author Topic: Doctor Who and Women  (Read 7897 times)

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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2013, 08:00:47 pm »
Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"

1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.

Martha Jones is a fucking star.

Never said the character was completely shit, I'm not really big on the whole "companion romace" thing that New Who is doing but it really annoyed me how obvious they made it for her. At least she wasn't Rose.

Offline Patches

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2013, 09:29:15 pm »
I'll throw in my two cents on this, because I've had a lot of issues with the writing since Moffat took over, the subconscious sexism only being a part of it.

A lot of the bad writing I think can be less attributed to overt sexism, and more attributed to Moffat hijacking the Doctor as his own personal wish-fulfillment alpha male avatar.  Starting with "The Eleventh Hour", the focus of the show shifted heavily into the realm of "Look how awesome the Doctor is, everyone love and praise him!"

I mean, look at the introductory episodes for Rose, Martha, and Donna.  Each of them opens with a lengthy segment following each woman on her daily routine and home life.  The Doctor often doesn't show up until at least 10 minutes into these episodes.  By that time, the companion as a person has already been established, independent of her relationship to the Doctor, and the remainder of the episode focuses on how her life changes upon meeting the Doctor.  Upon meeting the Doctor, the companion demonstrates initiative by saving the Doctor without needing to be instructed, and her actions impress upon him and he asks her to come along.

Move on to "The Eleventh Hour".  The Doctor is the first person we see in this episode, and we only ever see Amy when he interacts with her.  Who was Amy before she met the Doctor?  What did she like to do?  We only get her characterization through quick bits of offhand exposition rather than actually experiencing these things for ourselves.  Throughout the remainder of the episode, Amy completely lacks agency.  All she does is follow the Doctor around.  The day is saved because the Doctor tells everyone else what to do and they do it.  They're all just agents of his will.  In the end, the Doctor takes her along not because he's interested in her as a person, but because he's curious about the crack in her wall and the effects it's had on her.

Move on to "The Bells of St. John", and Clara fares a bit better.  We at least see her interacting with other people and going about her daily business outside of the Doctor's influence, however briefly.  She also manages to show initiative by hacking the wifi network and finding the evil hideout.  However, the Doctor still primarily takes her along because she's a "mystery", not because of her as a person.  Thankfully Neill Cross picked up a lot of Moffat's slack in "The Rings of Akhaten" and greatly fleshed out Clara as an independent character.

And then there's River who, again, doesn't hold the Doctor's interest because of who she is as a person, but because of the mystery surrounding her.  Davies' Doctors obviously cared about their companions as people, but Moffat's Doctor just sees them as puzzles to be solved, and once he's got them figured out, then they're only good for following him around and praising him.

There's also the problem that Moffat's companions aren't allowed to have any jobs or interests that don't directly relate to being a woman or pleasing a man.  Amy is a kissogram, a model, a wife, a uterus to create River Song.  Clara is a barmaid, a governess, a nanny.  Clara at least has a (stated) interest in travel.

Also notice how the Davies vs. Moffat companions dress.  Rose was often sporting fancy make-up and hair, but her clothing was usually downright frumpy.  Her first two episodes had her in sweatpants and a hoodie, and after that she was almost always in jeans or slacks.  Martha and Donna were the same.  It wasn't until Amy and Clara that the companions decided that heels and a mini-skirt were optimal dress for traveling the universe.

Then there's the Moffat-era women's ubiquitous obsession with the Doctor.  As I mentioned, this is partially sexism, but mostly Moffat just using the Doctor as his own wish-fulfillment avatar.  His Doctor is the guy who struts around everywhere, beating all his enemies on reputation alone by giving big speeches about how badass he is without having to do anything to actually prove it, who has women falling over him left and right, who has men grumbling and shuffling their feet around him because they can't be that awesome, and who never has to learn from his mistakes.

And that's what I think really bothers me about Moffat's themes instead of Davies.  The main theme of Davies' era was how the Doctor influenced the people around him to be stronger and better themselves.  When the characters give long monologues, it's often about how the Doctor has shown them how much more there is to life, such as Rose in "The Parting of the Ways" or Donna in "Partners in Crime" or even Elton in "Love and Monsters". 

Contrast to Moffat, and the side characters all seem to be in a race for who can be the most obsessed and devoted to the Doctor, at the expense of everything else.  Played up to the extreme when River was willing to sacrifice the universe for the Doctor's sake in "The Wedding of River Song".  Female characters especially love to give long, doting monologues on how amazing the Doctor is.  This idea of the Doctor tempting people to throw away everything for his sake was played out egregiously at the end of "The Angels Take Manhattan" when the Doctor takes it as a given that Amy will abandon Rory to his fate and come with him instead, and has a complete breakdown when she refuses (it's telling that he warns her "If you go, I will never see you again", implying that he believes he is the most important thing to her).

This idea that the Doctor is the most importentest thing in the entire universe is seen in all three of Moffat's season finales.  Unlike Davies' finales, we never really see what effect the conflict is having on anything outside of the immediate main cast.  Davies had Daleks wiping out all the humans on a space station, the Cybermen breaking into homes, the Master wiping out 1/10th of the world's population and taking it over, the Daleks rounding up people and experimenting on them.  In "The Big Bang", the Doctor just offhandedly mentions that the rest of the universe and humanity is gone and they're all that's left, but you wouldn't have known that if he hadn't told you because no issue is made of it.  The primary conflict is "Oh noes, the Doctor can save the universe, but he'll be wiped from existence!  The Doctor or the universe, that's a hard choice!"  In "The Wedding of River Song", the universe gets thrown out of whack, but nobody seems particularly bothered by it other than, "Huh, this isn't right."  But the primary conflict is, "Oh noes, the Doctor can save the universe, but he'll die!  The Doctor or the universe, that's a hard choice!"  And then in "The Name of the Doctor", this trope almost goes meta when the main focus again is on the safety of the Doctor, and Vastra belatedly runs outside just to exclaim, "Oh yeah, and the rest of the universe is ending, too.  But that's not as important as OMG THE DOCTOR!"

To end this excessively long post, I'll just sum up with: While it's true that sexist tropes are more prevalent in Moffat's era over Davies', the female characters' excessive submissiveness, obedience, and clinginess can be more readily explained by the Doctor's promotion to masculine godhood.

Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2013, 10:01:13 pm »
^ So you think Moffat uses 11 like a Mary Sue... That's an interesting possibility.  Never really thought about it that way.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 10:02:55 pm by SpaceProg »

Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 10:49:33 pm »
To end this excessively long post, I'll just sum up with: While it's true that sexist tropes are more prevalent in Moffat's era over Davies', the female characters' excessive submissiveness, obedience, and clinginess can be more readily explained by the Doctor's promotion to masculine godhood.

Amy was clingy, but she is also the first companion who's life has literally revolved around the Doctor.  She met him as a young girl and he was basically her life from that point on.  We see on multiple occasions how the Doctor regrets this yet does nothing to change it.  We see the Doctor being quite selfish in that regard.  In the end however Amy and Rory do have their own life, without the Doctor.  The Doctor can't stand losing Amy and Rory because they meant everything to him.  He does care for them as people.

Submissive and obedience are not words that describe Amy Pond.  She stands up for herself, and up to the Doctor very well.  Was self confident enough in herself to save a creature the Doctor was about to kill.  Survives 30 year alone, helps lead the resistance in a world where time is happening all at once. 

Than you has River Song.  Yes, she loves the Doctor, becomes his wife and would risk time itself to save him.  All the does not equate to sexism.  She also challenges him when needed, and manipulates him when needed.  She gets the guns, uses them, and gives not a fuck what the Doctor thinks about it.  The Doctor also loves River, even after he finds out who she is.  The Doctor loves her, not any type of mystery.

Clara we see as having feminine jobs, if you want to call caring for children feminine.  She is also very good at it.  She ultimately saves the Doctor and the universe, something other companions have done.  While on that journey we see her take charge of soldiers and leads them competently.

The Doctor is the main character of the show, and Moffat writes with the idea he is the most important person in the universe.  Moffat also makes it very clear that the Doctor needs his companions.  I don't think you can point out one Moffat episode where the Doctor is victorious without their help.

Plus Moffat has also give us two other very strong female characters, Madam Vastra and Jenny.  Openly gay women living in Victorian London who both kick major ass.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:32:58 pm by m52nickerson »
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Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2013, 11:32:42 pm »
Clara saved the Doctor's life several times.  In fact, he had to beg her to let him save her.  I thought that was pretty cool.

Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 11:35:42 pm »
m52nickerson makes pretty much the same points I would have made, but there's one important thing to remember: The Doctor IS the most important person in the universe. He's the last of the Time Lords. Not only is he tied to just about every major event ever, but he's also the last Time Lord. The last owner of a TARDIS. He literally is the most important person, because before, he was but one of a race of godlike beings, and a rather low class one at that. Now? He's the only one. It's the difference between the Greek Gods and The Bible. The Doctor has gone from one extremely powerful being to the only one. He is literally above everyone else. The Doctor is better than you. That goes for everyone else. You need The Doctor alive because without him, nobody can stop all the time traveling threats or all the bad shit that isn't a fixed point. Think of it like this: if you put all Kryptonians on a planet with a yellow sun, they're all equal, and the power of law and order is still there. Sure, they all have Superman's powers, but the good ones can beat the bad ones because of that. Now, get rid of all but one. Now, he's special. If he goes bad, nothing can stop him. If he's good, no matter what you throw at him, it's gonna get solved. Same idea. The Doctor is Superman.
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Offline SpaceProg

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 11:46:18 pm »
^ Pretty much, yep.

Offline Shane for Wax

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2013, 05:57:42 pm »
Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"

1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.

Martha Jones is a fucking star.

Never said the character was completely shit, I'm not really big on the whole "companion romace" thing that New Who is doing but it really annoyed me how obvious they made it for her. At least she wasn't Rose.

I was only refuting what you were talking about. Namely, 1) that she pined after the Doctor like a dog in heat and 2) the doubt that she was treated better than Amy. Which she was.

As for everyone else we're gonna have to agree to disagree that the Doctor can't be held responsible for his attitude towards his companions. Even though it was really shitty for Rose to tell him, point blank, that even tho the other Time Lords are gone she's still around.

Also, please bear in mind Time Lord is a title, not a race.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 05:59:24 pm by Booker DeWitt »

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Offline m52nickerson

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2013, 09:31:44 pm »
A lot of the bad writing I think can be less attributed to overt sexism, and more attributed to Moffat hijacking the Doctor as his own personal wish-fulfillment alpha male avatar.  Starting with "The Eleventh Hour", the focus of the show shifted heavily into the realm of "Look how awesome the Doctor is, everyone love and praise him!"

Thinking about this more it is ridiculous to say that Moffat is using the Doctor as his own male avatar.  He is the show runner and the head writer but that does not mean the characters he writes are reflections of himself.  We also see more of Amy's life than any other companion.  Yes, she becomes infatuated with the Doctor but ultimately she picks Rory.  We also see her faith in the Doctor almost be her downfall.

Now as far as the Doctor being a god like figure, well he is to a lot of people.  He is also not as much of a badass as he thinks he is.  When it looks as if he turned a whole universe of enemies away with only a threat he really did not.  It was a trap, a trap he fell into because he was to sure of himself.  In fact we see that more than once where the Doctor's own ego get people hurt.  Rory even calls him out on this.

The Doctor, Amy, Rory and the rest are not perfect, they have flaws...and that is what makes them interesting.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2013, 09:39:45 pm »
Martha, treated better than Amy? Martha, the first black companion, whose character arc in her debut season could be summarized as "omg why won't the doctor lurv me?"

1) She realized her feelings but also got out of there before it became a 'problem' as it were. She recognized nothing was going to happen so she moved on. She settled down. Became a certified MD. She worked for UNIT and Torchwood as their doctor. She became a fixed point to be able to get in touch with the Doctor later for UNIT. Also note she's the only companion (at least in the new Who) to actually vocalize her feelings in a romantic way. That took guts to hell and back.
2) She didn't let people walk over her. Remember when the Doctor turned himself fully human? They tried to walk over the poor black woman but it didn't happen. And she was treated like an equal by the Doctor himself. The fandom itself has been nothing but cruel to her. Calling her a whore, an idiot for trying to save the Doctor in their first meeting (because we all totally think the person we're giving mouth to mouth to might not be human). And in general comparing her unfairly to Rose.
3) She saved the world in the year that never existed. Nobody knows. Same with Donna. Except with Donna she doesn't remember either. But Martha doesn't mind. That's how Martha Jones is.

Martha Jones is a fucking star.

Never said the character was completely shit, I'm not really big on the whole "companion romace" thing that New Who is doing but it really annoyed me how obvious they made it for her. At least she wasn't Rose.

I was only refuting what you were talking about. Namely, 1) that she pined after the Doctor like a dog in heat and 2) the doubt that she was treated better than Amy. Which she was.

As for everyone else we're gonna have to agree to disagree that the Doctor can't be held responsible for his attitude towards his companions. Even though it was really shitty for Rose to tell him, point blank, that even tho the other Time Lords are gone she's still around.

Also, please bear in mind Time Lord is a title, not a race.
Martha was not treated better than Amy, whether by the writers or by The Doctor. The Doctor was too emo to pay much attention to her, and only really respected her after she saved the world. Additionally, Martha did pretty much just pine for The Doctor. That was the point of her character, that he wouldn't love her. Amy moved on without leaving, got over it, and matured as a person. Martha barely got any development until the end. The Ponds matured, changed and badassed it up over time. As for the last part, even the writers can't decide there. At this point, I feel the correct answer to "Is "Time Lord" a race or title?" is "Yes".
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
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Together as one, against all others.
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Humanity does learn from history,
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Offline Shane for Wax

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2013, 09:41:57 pm »
I'm not sure we watched the same Martha Jones, then. I already pointed out multiple bullet points about how she grew and was shown she was her own person in the first few minutes of seeing her in the show.

And Time Lord is definitely a title. Gallifreyan is the race. The Doctor is the last of the Time Lords but nothing has been said about him being the last of the Gallifreyans.

Besides, remember how long we were told he was the last of the Time Lords until the Master reappeared?

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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2013, 09:49:20 pm »
I'm not sure we watched the same Martha Jones, then. I already pointed out multiple bullet points about how she grew and was shown she was her own person in the first few minutes of seeing her in the show.

And Time Lord is definitely a title. Gallifreyan is the race. The Doctor is the last of the Time Lords but nothing has been said about him being the last of the Gallifreyans.

Besides, remember how long we were told he was the last of the Time Lords until the Master reappeared?
She was shown as her own character, but she didn't really change in my eyes, until the Year That Never Was. And, at some point in canon, it definitely was. At some point in canon, it definitely wasn't. At this point in canon, it's murky as shit. Also, that's like with Buffy. She's the "Chosen One", the "only" Slayer. Things went wonky and unplanned shit happened, so now there's two. The Doctor didn't know whatever he did only would effect Time Lords/Gallifreyans that weren't Arched. So he missed at least one. Honestly, I'd like to see it turn out that there's an entire "human" colony world in the future that's ALL Arched Time Lords, because partially, it'd be funny and a unique and easy way to bring them back.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
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Humanity does learn from history,
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Offline LeTipex

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 12:52:42 am »
So...

A lot of the arguments used to defend the "Eleven is sexist!" theme sound to me more like arguments to say "Eleven is much more of a dickhead than other doctors with his companions!". Which is... true, in a way. He doesn't treat women worse, he treats everyone worse. The fact that most of his companions are female is what makes it seem worse.

As for the "doctor as wish-fullfillment-mary-sue" thing... Again, heh.... kinda. True, the eleventh uses and abuse his reputation and the image of the doctor as this awesome godly character, almost a force of nature, but the central conflict  of the silence was that he abused that image so much that it was coming back to bite him in the ass, and that the best choice was to lay low and stop doing that! The eleventh is full of himself, and while he uses his arrogance like a weapon, we are shown that it leads to a lot more problems down the line.

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 09:54:20 am »
Exactly. Eleven is supposed to be full of himself, childish and overconfident. Part of this is likely because everyone was sick of The Emo Doctor and wanted a Time Lord that reflected exactly how everyone would feel towards traveling in time and space. He has depth, and at least some of his personality is specifically meant to keep people out, because he doesn't want to be hurt again. Honestly, there's a lot more depth to his dickery than people give them credit for. He's not just a dick, he's intentionally a dick, because after the last few companions, he doesn't want to be hurt more. He doesn't want to get close to someone only to lose them, as he's done so many times. So he is rude and insulting to them all, because he thinks it will make them not want to be around him. He doesn't just stop inviting people onboard the TARDIS because he needs to have a companion. This boils over after losing Amy and Rory, and he completely cuts off contact and stops adventuring, because he was even more deadset on it never, ever, ever happening again. Then, when he meets Clara, he sees a chance to make up for his past failure, and then his second failure with her. He's driven by not just discovery, but guilt that he couldn't save her before. He has a hero complex, and a need to save others. He always has, but it's on full display with Eleven. He's attracted to broken people, because he wants to help them and save them.
What I used to think was me is just a fading memory. I looked him right in the eye and said "Goodbye".
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Together as one, against all others.
- Marilyn Manson, Running To The Edge of The World

Humanity does learn from history,
sadly, they're rarely the ones in power.

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Life is too damned short for the concept of “guilty” pleasures to have any meaning.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Doctor Who and Women
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 10:04:55 am »
Exactly. Eleven is supposed to be full of himself, childish and overconfident. Part of this is likely because everyone was sick of The Emo Doctor and wanted a Time Lord that reflected exactly how everyone would feel towards traveling in time and space. He has depth, and at least some of his personality is specifically meant to keep people out, because he doesn't want to be hurt again. Honestly, there's a lot more depth to his dickery than people give them credit for. He's not just a dick, he's intentionally a dick, because after the last few companions, he doesn't want to be hurt more. He doesn't want to get close to someone only to lose them, as he's done so many times. So he is rude and insulting to them all, because he thinks it will make them not want to be around him. He doesn't just stop inviting people onboard the TARDIS because he needs to have a companion. This boils over after losing Amy and Rory, and he completely cuts off contact and stops adventuring, because he was even more deadset on it never, ever, ever happening again. Then, when he meets Clara, he sees a chance to make up for his past failure, and then his second failure with her. He's driven by not just discovery, but guilt that he couldn't save her before. He has a hero complex, and a need to save others. He always has, but it's on full display with Eleven. He's attracted to broken people, because he wants to help them and save them.

White Knight Syndrome, I like to call it.  Its one of the reasons I like Eleven, he tries to protect everyone to the point its a rather serious flaw.  Then, it boils over and even when he manages to take down an entire army without a single drop of blood spilled, in the end, it still bites him in the arse.
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