Author Topic: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality  (Read 5011 times)

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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« on: October 17, 2014, 07:24:08 pm »
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/16/pope-francis-s-family-synod-not-an-earthquake-but-a-big-tremor.html

Quote
This week’s working paper, released by the Synod on the Family taking place at the Vatican, is being hailed as an “earthquake” for the Roman Catholic Church. Hardly!  It is only a tremor (albeit substantial), which may forewarn of a coming earthquake, or merely be relieving some of the tension that has been building over the past few decades.

Pope Francis is certainly a breath of fresh air, and I, for one, rejoice in his style, tone and early pronouncements. I pray for him every day. His is a decidedly different persona from his immediate predecessors. His tone is deeply pastoral, kind, and merciful. But that is all it is: tone. Nothing has changed in terms of the teaching and policies of his Church.

There is much in this document to be lauded. I love his notion that the family is a “school of humanity,” within which we learn what it means to love our neighbor as ourselves. I couldn’t agree more. This working paper begins with an introductory description of the family returning home each evening to share a common meal, even a glass of wine, as everyone rejoices in the presence of one another and collectively learns from the experiences of the day—a 1950’s idyllic notion that may have never been true, and an ideal only a group of elderly, celibate men who have never been part of such a family in their adult lives could posit in this 21st century world.  But then, to its credit, the document goes on to describe real family life—beset by economic pressures, complicated by emotional and psychological realities, and just plain messy.

With respect to homosexual people, there is a decidedly changed tone. No wonder gay and lesbian people feel like it’s a new day!  No mention of sin here. No reiteration of official Catholic policy and teaching that homosexual persons are “intrinsically disordered.”  And most positive of all, there is mention that our unions may (emphasis added) contribute “gifts and qualities” beneficial to the Body of Christ and exhibit selfless giving, even to the point of sacrifice for the other. One wonders if Jesus’s question “Can a bad tree produce good fruit?” is being answered here?

It is clear from the response to this working paper that it represents a major, possible change in how the Roman Catholic Church regards its homosexual members. Some Catholic leaders are calling for the Synod to be unceremoniously canceled despite it’s only being half-finished. Denunciations by conservative Catholic leaders must mean that the Synod is doing something right!

Still, before we crown this working paper an “earthquake,” let’s look at the current reality. While the Synod says that the welfare of children is its highest priority, there is no admission of the pain caused by its teaching that homosexual persons are “intrinsically disordered”—either to young gay and lesbian Catholic children themselves, or to the children of partnered and/or married gay parents. The notion that there might be “fraternal space” (whatever that is!) within the Church for gay and lesbian members is posed as a question, not as a definitive statement. While there is no mention of homosexual “sin,” noting that there are “moral problems” with our relationships isn’t much better. Granted, our relationships may have moral issues, but sexual orientation is not one of them. Still, it’s a step forward to have the document refer to sexual orientation, rather than “preference,” as if it were merely a dinner entrée choice.

We should celebrate this working document and its kinder, gentler attitude toward gay and lesbian people, those who may cohabit prior to marriage, and those who have been divorced and remarried, even contemplating communion for them. This document has Pope Francis’s pastoral hand and respectful spirit written all over it. He is to be admired for his kindness and genuine pastoral concern for all the members of his flock.

He didn't go as far as I would've liked, but the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

ETA: Sorry, wrong forum.  Could a mod please move this to the religion section?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 07:25:43 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Ironchew

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2014, 08:13:16 pm »
The RCC changed nothing about their stance on homosexuality. This is more window-dressing PR and the fact that liberal Christians tout it as some big change makes me think less of them.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2014, 09:35:13 pm »
Moved.

Also:
Quote
But that is all it is: tone. Nothing has changed in terms of the teaching and policies of his Church.

That right there is the perfect summary of my position on Bergoglio.

Tone is not meaningless, to be sure. A change in tone can set the stage for a change in attitude. But it can also, well, not.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2014, 08:37:26 pm »
 >:( And then they went backwards again! >:(
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/18/catholic-church-already-walking-back-gay-friendly-message-vows-to-be-as-intolerant-as-ever/
Something tells me that the Pope doesn't have a say in anything. I always assumed he had more authority. Damned Archbishops! Why don't they ALL JUST DIE!!!
The Pope should just excommunicate them all!

Offline Ironchew

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2014, 08:48:37 pm »
>:( And then they went backwards again! >:(
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/18/catholic-church-already-walking-back-gay-friendly-message-vows-to-be-as-intolerant-as-ever/
Something tells me that the Pope doesn't have a say in anything. I always assumed he had more authority. Damned Archbishops! Why don't they ALL JUST DIE!!!
The Pope should just excommunicate them all!

They didn't go forward with anything besides a few condescending remarks about how gays could "offer us gifts". (Really, RCC? You think they owe you anything?) At least the archbishops reiterated the church's hateful views without the condescending bullshit.
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2014, 08:59:00 pm »
>:( And then they went backwards again! >:(
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/18/catholic-church-already-walking-back-gay-friendly-message-vows-to-be-as-intolerant-as-ever/
Something tells me that the Pope doesn't have a say in anything. I always assumed he had more authority. Damned Archbishops! Why don't they ALL JUST DIE!!!
The Pope should just excommunicate them all!

They didn't go forward with anything besides a few condescending remarks about how gays could "offer us gifts". (Really, RCC? You think they owe you anything?) At least the archbishops reiterated the church's hateful views without the condescending bullshit.

You're one to talk, Mr. Misgender.  No, I'm not letting you live that down.

Offline Ironchew

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 09:00:52 pm »
Right, because I'm just as bad as an international criminal organization. Calm down, UP.
Consumption is not a politically combative act — refraining from consumption even less so.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2014, 09:31:36 pm »
>:( And then they went backwards again! >:(
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/18/catholic-church-already-walking-back-gay-friendly-message-vows-to-be-as-intolerant-as-ever/
Something tells me that the Pope doesn't have a say in anything. I always assumed he had more authority. Damned Archbishops! Why don't they ALL JUST DIE!!!
The Pope should just excommunicate them all!

Spuki, Bergoglio is not pro-gay. You're free to look up his comments back when Argentina was debating the legalization of same-sex marriage. He's smart enough that he knows that the Church is lagging behind society on the issue and they have to step up if they don't want to be completely irrelevant, but he's also smart enough to know that devout Catholics don't like gays and they are his key demographic, so to speak. The draft of the synodal document was a test of the waters to see the reaction to slightly more progressive language*. The reversal is part of that test. This sort of thing will likely continue into next year's Synod and probably the rest of his papacy.

This is not a case of a progressive Pope who wants to reform Catholic doctrine but those evil archbishops won't let him. This is a conservative Catholic who wants to look good to the world but still appease the other conservative Catholics that are the source of his power**.


*Speculation, yes. But I think it's pretty well justified, given the circumstances.

**Much like Earth's yellow sun for Superman or the hyphen for Shazam Wil-Wheaton Dowden-Patel.
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2014, 09:32:49 pm »
Well, I think Jesus himself had something to say about this....
MATTHEW 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Which is a sort of spiritual version of those sayings concerning tricks for old dogs, singing lessons for pigs or failing to force a horse to drink water. They won't change, they don't want to change. They're a remnant of the ancient Roman Aristocracy....they want their ritzy chauvinist "Boy's Club", complete with pretty young teen male pulchritude to get all pederast with.

Sure, the rituals, sacraments, devotions, feasts & such are nice. But the folks running the organization behind the faith are clearly in "Decadent Roman" mode and have been from from the beginning.

In a nutshell, good Roman Catholics should just dump the Vatican and find alternatives. Perhaps they can join & beef up the numbers of the various Liberal Catholic Churches or become Episcopalians/Anglicans.

And thank you for being there for me, Paragon.  :)


>:( And then they went backwards again! >:(
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/10/18/catholic-church-already-walking-back-gay-friendly-message-vows-to-be-as-intolerant-as-ever/
Something tells me that the Pope doesn't have a say in anything. I always assumed he had more authority. Damned Archbishops! Why don't they ALL JUST DIE!!!
The Pope should just excommunicate them all!

Spuki, Bergoglio is not pro-gay. You're free to look up his comments back when Argentina was debating the legalization of same-sex marriage. He's smart enough that he knows that the Church is lagging behind society on the issue and they have to step up if they don't want to be completely irrelevant, but he's also smart enough to know that devout Catholics don't like gays and they are his key demographic, so to speak. The draft of the synodal document was a test of the waters to see the reaction to slightly more progressive language*. The reversal is part of that test. This sort of thing will likely continue into next year's Synod and probably the rest of his papacy.

This is not a case of a progressive Pope who wants to reform Catholic doctrine but those evil archbishops won't let him. This is a conservative Catholic who wants to look good to the world but still appease the other conservative Catholics that are the source of his power**.


*Speculation, yes. But I think it's pretty well justified, given the circumstances.

**Much like Earth's yellow sun for Superman or the hyphen for Shazam Wil-Wheaton Dowden-Patel.

Thank you, I realize now that Pope Francis is backwards, too. Sometimes I forget that. I'm sorry. Thankies for setting me straight, Sigster.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 09:36:40 pm by SpukiKitty »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2014, 09:33:34 pm »
Well, I think Jesus himself had something to say about this....
MATTHEW 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Which is a sort of spiritual version of those sayings concerning tricks for old dogs, singing lessons for pigs or failing to force a horse to drink water. They won't change, they don't want to change. They're a remnant of the ancient Roman Aristocracy....they want their ritzy chauvinist "Boy's Club", complete with pretty young teen male pulchritude to get all pederast with.

Sure, the rituals, sacraments, devotions, feasts & such are nice. But the folks running the organization behind the faith are clearly in "Decadent Roman" mode and have been from from the beginning.

In a nutshell, good Roman Catholics should just dump the Vatican and find alternatives. Perhaps they can join & beef up the numbers of the various Liberal Catholic Churches or become Episcopalians/Anglicans.

And thank you for being there for me, Paragon.  :)

Maybe an antipope is in the cards?

Offline Barbarella

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2014, 09:37:34 pm »
Well, I think Jesus himself had something to say about this....
MATTHEW 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Which is a sort of spiritual version of those sayings concerning tricks for old dogs, singing lessons for pigs or failing to force a horse to drink water. They won't change, they don't want to change. They're a remnant of the ancient Roman Aristocracy....they want their ritzy chauvinist "Boy's Club", complete with pretty young teen male pulchritude to get all pederast with.

Sure, the rituals, sacraments, devotions, feasts & such are nice. But the folks running the organization behind the faith are clearly in "Decadent Roman" mode and have been from from the beginning.

In a nutshell, good Roman Catholics should just dump the Vatican and find alternatives. Perhaps they can join & beef up the numbers of the various Liberal Catholic Churches or become Episcopalians/Anglicans.

And thank you for being there for me, Paragon.  :)

Maybe an antipope is in the cards?


You mean a Pope for a progressive non-Vatican Catholic Church?
There needs to be an alternative Catholic Church for good Catholics who love their faith but loathe the Vatican & the backwards rules. The Faith part is fine. Many of my fond early memories were about going to Mass. The religious/ritual part is beautiful. I love all that ritual, sacraments, rosary, chaplets, feast, smells & bells. It's the guys running things that's the problem.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 09:40:51 pm by SpukiKitty »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2014, 09:39:41 pm »
Well, I think Jesus himself had something to say about this....
MATTHEW 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Which is a sort of spiritual version of those sayings concerning tricks for old dogs, singing lessons for pigs or failing to force a horse to drink water. They won't change, they don't want to change. They're a remnant of the ancient Roman Aristocracy....they want their ritzy chauvinist "Boy's Club", complete with pretty young teen male pulchritude to get all pederast with.

Sure, the rituals, sacraments, devotions, feasts & such are nice. But the folks running the organization behind the faith are clearly in "Decadent Roman" mode and have been from from the beginning.

In a nutshell, good Roman Catholics should just dump the Vatican and find alternatives. Perhaps they can join & beef up the numbers of the various Liberal Catholic Churches or become Episcopalians/Anglicans.

And thank you for being there for me, Paragon.  :)

Maybe an antipope is in the cards?


You mean a Pope for a progressive non-Vatican Catholic Church?
You hit the nail on the head.

Offline Barbarella

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2014, 09:42:24 pm »
Well, I think Jesus himself had something to say about this....
MATTHEW 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Which is a sort of spiritual version of those sayings concerning tricks for old dogs, singing lessons for pigs or failing to force a horse to drink water. They won't change, they don't want to change. They're a remnant of the ancient Roman Aristocracy....they want their ritzy chauvinist "Boy's Club", complete with pretty young teen male pulchritude to get all pederast with.

Sure, the rituals, sacraments, devotions, feasts & such are nice. But the folks running the organization behind the faith are clearly in "Decadent Roman" mode and have been from from the beginning.

In a nutshell, good Roman Catholics should just dump the Vatican and find alternatives. Perhaps they can join & beef up the numbers of the various Liberal Catholic Churches or become Episcopalians/Anglicans.

And thank you for being there for me, Paragon.  :)

Maybe an antipope is in the cards?


You mean a Pope for a progressive non-Vatican Catholic Church?
You hit the nail on the head.

Awesome! And the Anti-Pope will be, in the big Christian scheme of things, be the True Pope...or Papess.

Y'know what would be awesome? There's all these beautiful old Catholic churches closing down, left & right. Buffalo, NY has many a Catholic Church, but a good chunk of them are defunct. Man! It would be wonderful to buy those old churches and re-open them as the NeoCatholic Church.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 09:45:26 pm by SpukiKitty »

Offline Svata

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Re: The Catholic Church goes farther on homosexuality
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2014, 10:01:53 pm »
Well, I think Jesus himself had something to say about this....
MATTHEW 7:6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Which is a sort of spiritual version of those sayings concerning tricks for old dogs, singing lessons for pigs or failing to force a horse to drink water. They won't change, they don't want to change. They're a remnant of the ancient Roman Aristocracy....they want their ritzy chauvinist "Boy's Club", complete with pretty young teen male pulchritude to get all pederast with.

Sure, the rituals, sacraments, devotions, feasts & such are nice. But the folks running the organization behind the faith are clearly in "Decadent Roman" mode and have been from from the beginning.

In a nutshell, good Roman Catholics should just dump the Vatican and find alternatives. Perhaps they can join & beef up the numbers of the various Liberal Catholic Churches or become Episcopalians/Anglicans.

And thank you for being there for me, Paragon.  :)

Maybe an antipope is in the cards?


You mean a Pope for a progressive non-Vatican Catholic Church?

I have been playing WAY too much D&D. I read that as non-Vancian at first.
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