Author Topic: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit  (Read 1346 times)

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2017, 11:43:21 pm »
"The" article, what article?

Besides which, red herring. The cops weren't doing anything.

Offline Askold

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2017, 11:54:19 pm »
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?

Wasn't really pre-emptive considering that the "Unite the right" fellas were doing drive by shootings and attacked a church before there was any violence from the counter protestors.
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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2017, 12:15:09 am »
If law enforcement isn't stopping them, sure.
Actually, the cops did the best they could with what they had. Crowd control, especially with something like Charlottesville, where the cops are undermanned, undertrained and absolutely fucked if the crowd gets properly violent, is less about stopping them and more about containing and minimising the damage.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg</a>

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2017, 12:23:10 am »
If law enforcement isn't stopping them, sure.
Actually, the cops did the best they could with what they had. Crowd control, especially with something like Charlottesville, where the cops are undermanned, undertrained and absolutely fucked if the crowd gets properly violent, is less about stopping them and more about containing and minimising the damage.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg</a>
If the best they had was letting a kid get beat repeatedly with metal poles a few metres from a police station then their best isn't good enough.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2017, 12:35:23 am »
What I don't get is why they even bothered. There are already plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Antifa, you don't have to make things up.
Thank you for reminding us that extreme centrism is still OK Lana.

Now watch thread degenerate into shouting match about virtues/vices of Antifa. MOAR DRAMA!

Yeah, it's so unreasonable to denounce politically-motivated violence./s

Direct question: do you think violence against peaceful protesters is ever acceptable?
Direct Answer, nope but the Charlotsville goons weren't peaceful. Nazis are not peaceful.

Source: one squished lady and World War fuckin' two!

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?

Wasn't really pre-emptive considering that the "Unite the right" fellas were doing drive by shootings and attacked a church before there was any violence from the counter protestors.

I wasn't talking about Charlottesville. Where did you get the impression that I was?
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2017, 01:14:17 am »
Ya know, I could've sworn that the 40s taught us that the only use we have for Nazis is target practice.
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Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2017, 01:20:14 am »

Another direct question: are preemptive strikes against Nazis justified?

Well, let me put it this way. Nazis and the alt-right have killed before and they are probably going to kill again. Preemptive strikes are a good way to stop them from getting the chance to kill more people. From a moral standpoint, preemptive strikes are a good idea and fully justified when you're dealing with killers.

Because, let me remind you, these people have killed, are killing, and will kill. They are killing people. Name one person dead due to ANTIFA. Go on, just one.

Also, in response to your other question, yes, because people who aren't neo-Nazis or members of the alt-right tend not to show up at these rallies.
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Offline Askold

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2017, 01:25:53 am »
Ooh! Here's an interesting question: what kind of pre-emptive strike?

Cause so far counter protestors have done mainly non-violent stuff or on few occasions used non-lethal force.

Nazis are advocating genocide and have killed a lot of people and yes, this includes stuff after 1945. If the pre-emptive stuff is denying them platform to preach hate then I'm all for it.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2017, 01:46:11 am »
I wasn't talking about Charlottesville. Where did you get the impression that I was?
DI-RECT QUESTION Lana, didn't you just pepper me with a bunch of direct questions in response to what I said about Charlottesville?

Specifically, Charlottesville! You know, the town with the great stonking statue of the pro-slavery guy people have been getting cranky about.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2017, 02:12:09 am »
Quote
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2017, 02:14:37 am »
Quote
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

You're right. Let's just let Nazis keep killing people.
There is no plague more evil and vile to watch spread than the plague that is the Von Habsburg dynasty.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2017, 02:24:56 am »
Quote
With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

You're right. Let's just let Nazis keep killing people.

Killing is not speech, nor is it a thought, nor is it a freedom.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote
If you don't like what I'm saying, there's a good chance you're the reason I'm saying it.

Quote
Be weird, cause normal is boring.

Offline Svata

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2017, 02:47:39 am »
If you debate an idea, you imply it is worth considering, worth debating. If you allow rallies where chants of "Jews will not replace us" are shouted, you imply that it is an okay opinion to have, and thereby normalize it. If you normalize it, people will stop being horrified at it. The edges near to it will gravitate towards it. And they will recruit more nazis. They will grow their ranks. And then we have WW2 era germany all over again. Nip. It. In. The. Fucking. Bud.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2017, 03:10:07 am »
What I am against is the use of state force to shut down speech. What I am also against is allowing speech to go unrebutted.

EDIT: As I've put it elsewhere:

What I don't want is for free speech to be eroded to the point where harsh but legitimate criticism (for instance, pointing out the egregious misdeeds of various religions or members thereof) is on the border between allowable and illegal speech, because it could be taken by some to be a justification for violent behaviour.

In general, I'm opposed to hate speech laws because I think they border on thoughtcrime.

I support restricting speech on the basis of copyright, trademark, libel, slander (with truth as an absolute defence for libel and slander), and direct calls for violence or speech that would reasonably lead to an immediate threat of harm (this is where the old, tired "fire in a crowded theatre" line falls, because that is liable to incite a riot which would cause harm), but not on a broader, more amorphous notion of "hate speech." (So, as I've seen it put, given that we do accept* all of those restrictions, at this point we're just quibbling over the details.)

I support the right of people to say what they will, within the above bounds, without fear of governmental sanction, because I want that right--and other rights--to be there to protect me against governmental action when I need them to.

*Well, most of us; I think Queen has said some things about copyright.

--

I don't like how those groups use their rights, but I also want to be able to use those same rights when a majority--even a vast majority--of society dislikes how I might exercise them.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:22:51 am by dpareja »
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote
If you don't like what I'm saying, there's a good chance you're the reason I'm saying it.

Quote
Be weird, cause normal is boring.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Utterly legitimate and non farcical "antifa manual" found on Reddit
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2017, 03:49:00 am »
I get what you're saying dpareja, my problem isn't with speech but rather action. If the gamergatin', alt-righting, crypto Nazi frog people come into your town I'm strongly in favour of protesting against them but only taking violent action if they do so themselves and that ain't to stop anyone's speech. It's to stop themselves and others from getting run over.

It's worth remembering that the alt right are strongly against arguing in good faith, remember these are the same people who made the document in the OP. They are the folks behind "free bleeding" and gamergate, I think it's worth making a counterargument to people sitting on the fence who might be listening to them but not to them directly or mocking them mercilessly if they pretend to argue but "arguing" or "debating" is pointless with people who won't argue in good faith-as our old forumite Paragon proved. These guys don't care about the truth, most of them aren't even pretending to anymore.

So yeah, I'm not giving all Antifa a free pass to cosh all right wingers (or people they think are right wingers) forever but I have absolutely no problem with them defending themselves or even taking preemptive action with an armed enemy who've come with every intention of coshing them-at the least. If someone does just want to debate the finer points of Fascism with them then I'd say uncool if they just popped them then and there. If however they get into fisticuffs with a bunch of armed right wingers who've come to fuck them up, well that's fair.

I can't get too worked up about the rights of Fascists, they want to take away the rights of me and the people I care about. If the ACLU and similar folks want to stand up for all speech OK. Good for them but I'm not about to stand up for the speech of Fascists because it boils down to "gas that lefty who's typing this".