Author Topic: Awesome Protest Signs  (Read 589983 times)

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Offline Murdin

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2940 on: January 25, 2017, 01:43:05 pm »
I will write more after work but I just want you all to know that

a) I still stand by my ridiculously high standards of when I will support violence.

b) Trump just crossed that line by saying that he is going to bring back torture and illegal CIA prisons.

My issue was with your argument, not with your standpoint against violence. I see how my message could make you think otherwise, and if you did, I'm sorry.

To get back on purely factual matters, though, it should be noted that Obama either failed or decided not to get rid off alternative enhanced interrogation and Gitmo, and that Trump actually campaigned in favor of these things. His recent declaration doesn't really come as a surprise.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:45:01 pm by Murdin »

pyro

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2941 on: January 25, 2017, 01:45:38 pm »
b) Trump just crossed that line by saying that he is going to bring back torture and illegal CIA prisons.

As if they ever stopped.

Offline Askold

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2942 on: January 25, 2017, 01:53:16 pm »
Obama got most of the prisoners out and didn't bring more in.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Askold

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2943 on: January 25, 2017, 04:16:54 pm »
Now that I'm back home...

I specifically used examples that I knew to be shocking because to me it seems like making an exception of "these people are acceptable targets and laws should not protect them" makes a nasty slippery slope and is exactly what fascists say about other groups of people.

Besides, all this talk about how there is no way to stop nazis from gaining power seems really defeatist. They won a few elections and now everyone is acting like we can never vote them out or that they will with 100% certainly refuse to relinquish power and THIS in specific is the only issue where I will fucking give them the reason of doubt. If fascists, in Finland or elsewhere, try to remain in power desbite elections/laws saying they can't or if they try to make laws that are against constitution or otherwise ...Well, fascist laws, then that is the point where a violent coup is necessary for the good of democracy but until then I am happy to merely use legal means to oppose them.

As for the pedophile example, if child molesters go to politics to try and make their horrible ways legal, then I will fight for their right to try to (in legal ways) lobby for their horrible ways while at the same time doing my best to oppose them and ridicule them in also legal ways. Though if I ever get any evidence of them doing something illegal to kids I will call the cops on them. Besides, why speak hypotethically when NAMBLA did exactly that and Jon Stewart and Daily show spent several years ridiculing them and exposing them as the pathetic and horrible people they are.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Even Then

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2944 on: January 25, 2017, 05:37:50 pm »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to start punching Nazis myself (because I'm a cowardly motherfucker and I'd probably go to jail) and if I were a judge at a trial for that antifa guy I'd give him a guilty verdict for assault, because he did still punch a guy. But that's on a higher level. I wouldn't be chomping at the bit to report the guy if given the opportunity. And if someone went "I'm gonna punch a Nazi" at a bar to me, I wouldn't exactly trip over myself to stop the guy.

Well, at least out of any "but you'll only give Nazis legitimacy" reason, because what do I care about the feelings of Nazis or idiots who'd sympathize with them on the sole basis of them getting hate? But they'd probably get in trouble with the bar staff and authorities, so I'd t least try to talk their way out of them.

Now as political praxis, I admit the matter's more nuanced. Sure, institutionally legitimizing vigilante violence against certain groups opens doors to scary implications, but at the same time, nazis care shitall about democracy. Uncritically allowing them into the political mainstream will let them abuse a system they disdain and expand the Overton Window until they can pull back Hitler's soul from Hell through it, piece by piece. Adults don't do violence as constructive conflict resolution and it shouldn't be incentivized on a governmental level, but at the same time if Nazis wanna martyr themselves because they're hated for being Nazis, that's on them. They were already doing it anyway.

I don't know the right answer, is what I'm trying to say. And I don't wanna come across like I do. All I can do is have my thoughts on it and not actually have any influence of significance. But I can at least see where you're coming from.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 05:50:04 pm by Even Then »

Offline Skybison

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2945 on: January 25, 2017, 05:54:52 pm »
Eh, I still think it's a false equivalency.  Suppressing a religious group and punching one jerk once for his support for genocide are very different things.  And come on people, did that time Buzz Aldrin punched a moon truther in the face legitimize them?  A one off incident won't do that.

That being said I do agree with the rest of what you are saying.  Let's make one thing clear:  The Nazis Are Not In Power.

Trump isn't Hitler, or even Pinochet.  He's an empty demagogue with no genuine ideology besides his own greatness.  He used Nazi's, fascists and low level authoritarians to gain power but clearly doesn't give a fig about them.  The historical figure Trump best resembles I'd argue is Silvio Berlusconi, a corrupt asshole but hardly a genocidal maniac.  And we should look at what worked against Berlusconi when dealing with Trump.
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/30/13767174/case-for-normalizing-trump

For violence in general, political scientists have found that non-violent civil disobedience campaigns are far more likely to defeat authoritarian governments then armed insurrections.  For stopping fascist movements from gaining power, mass state repression can work if we're talking full Assad level and they goad the fascists into violence themselves, but antifa stuff is probably just going to escalate the situation.  Violence only really works if it's backed up by overwhelming force, otherwise people respond tit for tat.

Offline Murdin

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2946 on: January 25, 2017, 08:11:25 pm »
The slippery slope goes both ways, as they almost always do. Are murderers acceptable targets for imprisonment? What is a crime, an attempted crime, complicity in a crime, and how to punish those things in a way that isn't itself criminal? Honestly, I think we're running in circles here. Worse, I feel like you still perceive this discussion as an attack on your moral beliefs, as if people were trying to convince you to endorse violence. I can tell you that I do respect your convictions, do consider your point about public respectability to be of decisive importance, and that even though I can't speak for anyone else, I suspect most people here would tell you the same.

There's something that needs to be said about defeatism, however.

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:14:28 pm by Murdin »

Offline Askold

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2947 on: January 26, 2017, 02:35:07 am »
More than the punch my beef is with the current theme of "Nazis cannot be won over with words or reasoned with they must be destroyed" theme when I have seen examples of the opposite. Xenophobia more often than not is because of lack of interaction with the "outsiders" and it is possible for them to learn not to hate indiscriminantly. The former head of Finnish Neo-Nazi movement quite literally realized one day that he was the bad guy and that he did not want to teach the same hate to his son. He broke off from the movement and stopped answering to letters from David Duke.

https://www.hate-speech.org/a-neo-nazi-leader-breaks-off/

Similarly simply by going out to the Nazis and talking to them has worked in the past and I don't see why it wouldn't do so in the future.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Murdin

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2948 on: January 26, 2017, 08:09:57 am »
More than the punch my beef is with the current theme of "Nazis cannot be won over with words or reasoned with they must be destroyed" theme when I have seen examples of the opposite.

My beef is with people throwing moral equivalences between genocidal maniacs, and those willing to use violent or illegal means to prevent them from achieving their goals. Moral equivalences which, taken to their logical conclusions with no need for slippery slopes, loom dangerously close to nihilism. Even the state monopoly on violence ultimately rely on the idea that there is some legitimacy in fighting fire with fire.

(click to show/hide)


(EDIT) tl;dr: wonky moral posturing isn't gonna bring anyone back to their senses, it will only divide us more and more. We can and should encourage this level of patience and consideration, but we can't expect everyone to "get it" right away.

I also wanted to add something quick about winning fascists over. I want to assume this is common knowledge by now, and it was already implied in Askold's message, but I think it bears mentioning. Facts don't work, not until they have pulled their head out of the rabbit hole. Their own subjectivity is all that matters. Use your own personal experiences, but in a manner that rubs them up the right way. Feels, not reals ; there's a reason these kinds of people keep repeating the opposite.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 10:59:01 am by Murdin »

Offline Askold

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2949 on: January 26, 2017, 10:30:34 am »
I think we can just agree that we are mostly on the level (Nazis bad.) and disagree only on minor issues (when is it ok to punch nazis.)

Besides, punching a Nazi in the facec in USA is silly simply because you could always say that you "felt threatened by them and were in fear of your life" and shoot them in the face.

With a gun.

Such as those that you are allowed to bear and shoot thanks to 2nd amendment and stand your ground laws. (Try to find a lawyer who can claim that Neo-Nazis are not a threat, I dare you.)
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline Murdin

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2950 on: January 26, 2017, 10:58:15 am »
No problem. I think our actual disagreement is even more limited than that, along the lines of "how to interact with people who endorse the unprovoked use of violence against Nazis". You may call this nitpicking, but I really find it a very important issue, for reasons that I already elaborated on in this thread.

Also...

Besides, punching a Nazi in the facec in USA is silly simply because you could always say that you "felt threatened by them and were in fear of your life" and shoot them in the face.

With a gun.

Such as those that you are allowed to bear and shoot thanks to 2nd amendment and stand your ground laws. (Try to find a lawyer who can claim that Neo-Nazis are not a threat, I dare you.)

I guess we can also agree that this is kinda fucked up?

Offline dpareja

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2951 on: January 27, 2017, 04:09:11 am »
I just posted this image on a message with a politics thread frequented by a number of conservatives:



Pointing out that this is corporate welfare, that raising the minimum wage would eliminate this problem, and that Walmart spends a fraction of those profits on lobbying the government to keep the food stamp program going.

Hilarity to follow.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Askold

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2952 on: January 27, 2017, 04:19:31 am »
Yeah, that's what companies do and many governments see nothing wrong with it.

Meanwhile in Finland rent is too damn high and the tax payers are paying for welfare so that unemployed and low-earning people can afford to live inside a house and the companies and organizations that own the apartments raise the rents further because they know that the poor can always pay more as the government simply raises their benefits to keep up with the rent... This too is a system where government is simply directing tax payer money to the landlords.
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

pyro

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2953 on: January 27, 2017, 12:30:51 pm »
Pointing out that this is corporate welfare, that raising the minimum wage would eliminate this problem, and that Walmart spends a fraction of those profits on lobbying the government to keep the food stamp program going.

Hilarity to follow.

Don't raise the minimum wage. Walmart just raises the prices of everything when you do that, and it basically just causes inflation.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Awesome Protest Signs
« Reply #2954 on: January 27, 2017, 02:40:49 pm »
Pointing out that this is corporate welfare, that raising the minimum wage would eliminate this problem, and that Walmart spends a fraction of those profits on lobbying the government to keep the food stamp program going.

Hilarity to follow.

Don't raise the minimum wage. Walmart just raises the prices of everything when you do that, and it basically just causes inflation.

Walmart might, but other businesses don't necessarily, which would drive consumers away from Walmart and toward other businesses, thus forcing Walmart to lower its prices to recapture those customers.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.