Author Topic: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?  (Read 7243 times)

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Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 11:05:26 pm »
That wasn't the question, Chris.

The question was, "is there anything you wouldn't expect to see in a universe where God existed?" Anything at all, not just the existence of evil or pain.
I would say that just like any other artist, I would expect to see parts of him in his creation.

Offline JohnE

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 11:08:16 pm »
Let me try to ask it another way: Imagine a universe in which god doesn't exist. In what observable ways is it different from a universe in which god does exist?

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 11:25:59 pm »
Let me try to ask it another way: Imagine a universe in which god doesn't exist. In what observable ways is it different from a universe in which god does exist?
For me it is hard to imagine a world where God exists because all I've ever observed is one where he does. I have nothing to really base it on. I'm sure I'm frustrating you guys I just simply don't know how to answer the questions. It's such a complicated issue. I'm going to give it my best shot though.

To me a universe without God would be in utter chaos because there would be no one molding and shaping it. We would not exist, at least not in the complicated way we do now. I think everything would at least be simple minded and dull. There would be no structure, there would be no laws.

Offline JohnE

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2013, 11:41:13 pm »
You're not frustrating me, just confirming my expectations.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2013, 11:50:58 pm »
You're not frustrating me, just confirming my expectations.
what were your expectations, if you don't mind me asking?

Offline JohnE

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2013, 12:03:47 am »
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?

Offline Her3tiK

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2013, 12:05:38 am »
Nothing. Should the god of the bible prove to be irrefutably true, then the bastard has to much pain and suffering to answer for that I would never convert. I would declare my allegiance to Lucifer without a second thought; even his (inaccurate) biblical portrayal paints a better picture of him than it does YHWH.
Her3tik, you have groupies.
Ego: +5

There are a number of ways, though my favourite is simply to take them by surprise. They're just walking down the street, minding their own business when suddenly, WHACK! Penis to the face.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2013, 12:14:33 am »
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.

Offline JohnE

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2013, 12:32:22 am »
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?
Yes. If the natural laws describing how such a thing could happen could be described by science, I'd believe that. On the contrary, I have evidence that it was made by people.

On the other hand, when I come across a rock, a tree, or a river, I don't assume that someone built them intentionally. I assume they came about through natural processes.

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Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.
Ok. Then what evidence might make you reconsider the truth of Christianity?

Offline Lithp

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2013, 12:41:29 am »
This question first requires a workable, testable definition of "God" & "Christianity." That is my answer.

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Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

If I took it to the manufacturer & they said that it wasn't one of theirs, I might have to seriously consider this possibility.

But, as John said, the difference is that the process of making a computer is well understood, & there are all manner of things that trace back to the manufacturers--technical support lines, logos, etc. And other things that just indicate that it was made by humans in general, such as the keys being in human languages, or the fairly universal on/off symbol, or even the fact that the screen projects in the visible spectrum.

A tree grows from other trees. Any "original tree" is long since dead. Since no tree alive today was directly created by some other being, why should we assume that this was ever the case, unless we can locate the designer, or some record of it, & verify its claims independently?

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2013, 12:46:35 am »
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?
Yes. If the natural laws describing how such a thing could happen could be described by science, I'd believe that. On the contrary, I have evidence that it was made by people.

On the other hand, when I come across a rock, a tree, or a river, I don't assume that someone built them intentionally. I assume they came about through natural processes.

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Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.
Ok. Then what evidence might make you reconsider the truth of Christianity?
You don't truly actually have evidence though. You haven't actually been to seen him. You are just assuming he/she is real because of things you've seen and experienced in the past. I could also go see God, it's just a different way of going about it. You may say well what if God isn't actually there? I know the guy who made the computer is but you don't. Which I reply with no you don't, you're assuming that guy exists. If the computer just came into being he doesn't exist. The only way to prove he exists is to go find him. Same with us, the only real way to prove God is to see him. You're making an educated guess that someone made your computer. That's all I'm doing is making an educated guess that someone made all this stuff. That's why I give the example, it seems just as logical for me as it is for you.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 12:52:25 am »
This question first requires a workable, testable definition of "God" & "Christianity." That is my answer.

Quote
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

If I took it to the manufacturer & they said that it wasn't one of theirs, I might have to seriously consider this possibility.

But, as John said, the difference is that the process of making a computer is well understood, & there are all manner of things that trace back to the manufacturers--technical support lines, logos, etc. And other things that just indicate that it was made by humans in general, such as the keys being in human languages, or the fairly universal on/off symbol, or even the fact that the screen projects in the visible spectrum.

A tree grows from other trees. Any "original tree" is long since dead. Since no tree alive today was directly created by some other being, why should we assume that this was ever the case, unless we can locate the designer, or some record of it, & verify its claims independently?
I agree with your description of the keys being in a human language being proof a human made it. What I don't understand is why you can't follow that same logic to the conclusion that something like the human eye is less likely to have just came together on its own than a keyboard. The differences between the complicated structure of the human eye and an HP laptop are astronomical.

Offline BigChrisfilm

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 01:04:30 am »
I guess for me it's easier to believe someone made that keyboard then it is to believe it just came together. It's even more believable to me that keyboard would come together all on its own than everything else in the universe doing the same.

Offline JohnE

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 01:16:49 am »
Ok. Then what evidence might make you reconsider the truth of Christianity? (Like maybe deism is true, for example)

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: What Would it Take to Convert/Deconvert You?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 01:31:45 am »
That you would be closed minded to even the possibility that you could be wrong, as I find is the case for most fundamentalist Christians.

But then again, I could still be wrong. What if there IS a god, but not the god of Christianity (like a deistic god, for example)? Would there be any evidence that could convince you that Christianity is incorrect (or at least make you seriously question it)?
Would you be open minded enough to possibility that your computer was not made by anyone, but rather just came into existence?

Also I'd more willing to to believe another god exists than I would to believe that none exists. I guess that's why I could never be an atheist.

If everything has to be made by something else, then what made God?