Author Topic: Rant 2: Despair In Christ  (Read 3135 times)

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Offline rageaholic

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Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« on: August 12, 2013, 02:58:52 pm »
Another thing I get tired of hearing from Christians is how Jesus died for our sins so that makes everything okay.  Whenever someone brings up the problem of suffering, the injustice of hell, ect, the evangelical Christian will bring up that Jesus died for our sins.  As if that makes all the other horrors of the fundie faith moot.  First of all, the idea of someone else being punished for the “crimes” of us is horrifying in it's own right.   If god is all knowing, he knows that Jesus is really innocent, so what's the point?  Then there’s the whole idea of someone needing to be punished in the first place.  If God is so forgiving and merciful, than he should not feel the need to punish anyone at all.  God made us imperfect (he gave us the curiosity that lead to the forbidden fruit), and maybe instead of demanding punishment, he could be more understanding. Sure, it wouldn’t be violent and gruesome, but it would make a hell of a lot more sense than needless vengeance. 

And that leads into my main point, when you start with a premise that everyone deserves hell for being imperfect, you have an extremely depressing and hopeless viewpoint.   You can’t make up some bullshit about Jesus dying for our sins and expect to make everything better.  Especially when there’s always some twist about who’s a real Christian or not.  You’re still saying most people are going to hell which again, is depressing and hopeless no matter which way you spin it.  Also, telling someone that Jesus died for their sins doesn’t help anyone’s problems on earth.  This is another thing I see that drives me nuts.  Someone who’s suffering hardships on earth wonders why God isn’t helping them.  The douchebag fundie tells them that Jesus died for their sins so that means God cares.  Ignoring the problems with “dying for our sins”, there’s really no proof of any of this, so someone who has even the tiniest doubt is not going to feel any comfort from that statement.  If anything it will make them feel guilty, wondering why they don’t feel happy despite this “ultimate sacrifice”.  Well maybe if they had some actual proof that God cared, they would feel better.

TLDR? Jesus dying for our sins doesn't make the faith any less depressing.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 05:00:31 pm by rageaholic »

Offline Old Viking

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 04:13:52 pm »
When I was a little boy I found it desirable to have someone else pay for my sins.  That's why I always pointed at my younger brother and said, "He did it."
I am an old man, and I've seen many problems, most of which never happened.

Offline Valerius

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 05:08:30 pm »
The other thing with the whole "Jesus died for your sins" argument  is that when fundies bring it up and bash you over the head with it, their point is that because of this, you're somehow indebted to Jesus and if you don't repent and accept Christ, you're somehow shitting all over his sacrifice. This pisses me off because I really don't recall asking Jesus to sacrifice himself so I could be saved. It's like if I randomly bought someone a Lamborghini and then demanded that they pay me back, plus interest. That's nice and all, but they wouldn't owe me shit since they didn't ask for it.

Offline Søren

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 05:39:22 pm »
"Jesus did for YOUR SINS you know"
"Aw..fuck...um....is he alright?"
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Offline Flying Mint Bunny!

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 05:48:16 pm »
I just think it's like blood money, I don't understand how i'm supposed to want to go to a heaven that's been paid for with someone else's suffering.

Offline Lithp

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2013, 11:26:53 pm »
Disregarding that Jesus apparently decides what is a sin in the first place.

Offline Leafy

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2013, 11:38:16 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWAUhadJzTk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWAUhadJzTk</a>
This is what i thought of when I read your post.

Offline rageaholic

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2013, 07:21:01 pm »
The other thing with the whole "Jesus died for your sins" argument  is that when fundies bring it up and bash you over the head with it, their point is that because of this, you're somehow indebted to Jesus and if you don't repent and accept Christ, you're somehow shitting all over his sacrifice. This pisses me off because I really don't recall asking Jesus to sacrifice himself so I could be saved. It's like if I randomly bought someone a Lamborghini and then demanded that they pay me back, plus interest. That's nice and all, but they wouldn't owe me shit since they didn't ask for it.

That's why I laugh when fundies tell me it's a "free gift".  It might be free in theory, but in practice it's emotional blackmail. 

Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2013, 07:26:57 pm »
The other thing with the whole "Jesus died for your sins" argument  is that when fundies bring it up and bash you over the head with it, their point is that because of this, you're somehow indebted to Jesus and if you don't repent and accept Christ, you're somehow shitting all over his sacrifice. This pisses me off because I really don't recall asking Jesus to sacrifice himself so I could be saved. It's like if I randomly bought someone a Lamborghini and then demanded that they pay me back, plus interest. That's nice and all, but they wouldn't owe me shit since they didn't ask for it.

That's why I laugh when fundies tell me it's a "free gift".  It might be free in theory, but in practice it's emotional blackmail. 

I laugh even harder when fundies tell me it's a "free love gift," because it sounds like a really shitty pickup line.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2013, 11:50:03 pm »
"Free love gift?"  Sounds like something you say when you're about to rape someone.
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Offline Sylvana

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 08:21:49 am »
And that leads into my main point, when you start with a premise that everyone deserves hell for being imperfect, you have an extremely depressing and hopeless viewpoint.   You can’t make up some bullshit about Jesus dying for our sins and expect to make everything better.

This here is the entire point.
Christianity requires that initial hopeless premise because if it didn't exist the rest of the religion would be pointless. If you don't start off with the initial premise of everyone going to hell it makes the concept that through the church you can be redeemed moot. This is used by the church to frame the question / narrative, and why they generally don't like philosopher types who ask difficult questions about why a perfect being would create imperfect creations destined to suffering.

Remember that at the very root of all religion, is a sales pitch. Spiritualism was originally used to explain the natural world, but organized religion was created to control people. It is creating a system whereby they take the spirituality that people already believe in, and then twist it around their own narrative, creating a need that never existed before, but one that can be fulfilled by pledging allegiance to the church. What is worse is that this story has played itself out for so many centuries that the religious leaders believe their own sales pitch

Religion works on targeting a number of psychological weaknesses and insecurities in all humans. It starts with the most basic of which, a fear of death. Which is why all religions have some aspect of an afterlife, either re-incarnation or heaven and hell etc. After that it pits that unverifiable afterlife in a false dichotomy, either happiness or torment. Of course this motivates us to strive for the outcome we desire most. Religion then normally sets a bunch of requirements relating to achieving the happy ending and that sets most social morals. In short, religion is a useful way to shape a populations behavior to be beneficial to the population. This was probably the most original purpose of religion, but is still fundamentally a system of control. It is not necessarily a bad thing, but it depends entirely on the religious leaders who direct that control. The second aspect of the psychology that religions target is that our brains love to see patterns in things. Thus religion can attribute events in ones life to supernatural causes despite them being completely random. Add to that the re-enforcement that one can receive a deities blessing if they worship enough, and that insufficient worship results in bad things happening, it creates a religious feedback loop of falsely identified patterns in random phenomena.

So at the end of the day, don't hate people for believing, understand them for who and what they are.

Offline majingojira

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2013, 03:44:47 pm »
Quote
That's why I laugh when fundies tell me it's a "free gift".  It might be free in theory, but in practice it's emotional blackmail.

It is certainly not free in any sense of the word. By free, I think that they mean 'accessible' to all, but once you accept it and convert, the bible makes it very clear that you have been married to Christ and will become his beloved SERVANT for all eternity. So in exchange for giving you eternal life and saving you from Hell, you are now little more than an exalted slave expected to worship him for all eternity. For some people, this is an ideal life, for any one else with a modicum of self-respect, this is abhorrent.

Even while you're alive, it's not free. Say I convert. I say "Alright, I accept Jesus' free gift of salvation so I don't go to Hell." The missionary says "Great! Now you can read the bible, come to church, spread the word and vote republican!" I say "Wait, you said it was free!? Why am I expected to do all these other things? Can't I just accept the free gift and carry on with my sinful life?" The missionary replies "No! You are now a servant of Christ! If you don't do these things, you aren't a Christian!" I reply "You don't know what the word free means do you?"

By salvation they mean servitude.

"Here's the free gift of bondage."
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 03:46:26 pm by majingojira »

Offline Flying Mint Bunny!

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2013, 07:51:32 pm »
I think Free Love Gift sounds like something a dodgy massage parlour would say to the police in a vain attempt to avoid charges of prostitution.

"No one paid for sex here. They just bought massages and received a Free Love Gift afterwards."

Offline rageaholic

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2013, 07:57:45 pm »
Fundamentalists (especially Calvinists) love to give words we're familiar with different meanings than what we're used to.  They can get away with saying something like "god loves everyone" when they give "love" such a specific meaning that fits with their theology.  So you have a "loving" god that sends people to hell?  Well "loving" really means give us a choice between following God and burning in hell and God doesn't "send" anyone to hell, they send themselves there!  Makes you wonder why they choose to use those words in the first place.  Of course, they'll blame the ebil secular world for distorting the true meanings of God's word so they'll be off the hook.

Another thing that drives me nuts: The senseless martyr bullshit in Christian circles.  I already raved about how God could have done any number of things other than sacrifice Jesus.  It would be like a billionaire helping the poor by letting them eat him for dinner.   Sure, it’s a selfless sacrifice, but it would make more sense to use the money to help the poor.   Less painful for him and people still benefit, win win.  Same way God could have just said “I forgive humanity for their faults” and let it go.  Why do things have to be done in the most painful way?  It's. Just. So. Unnecessary. 

Offline Lithp

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Re: Rant 2: Despair In Christ
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 02:17:59 am »
To instill his followers with the same martyr complex, even over mundane shit?