Author Topic: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington  (Read 395200 times)

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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1695 on: September 20, 2017, 06:27:06 pm »
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2017/09/20/6-big-lies-about-graham-cassidy-and-healthcare-reform-and-1-truth/#6104ad62a640

Bonus, Graham-Cassidy says FUCK YOU to states' rights!

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Massachusetts was the state that prototyped the originally-Republican-developed ideas that became the basis for the ACA. And there's lots of talk that states need to experiment. But that's not really what the Republicans want. As John Kennedy of Louisiana said, "I want to get us to give guardrails to the states to say, 'You cannot use these moneys to set up a state-run single-payer system.'” I don’t believe in it. I think it’s a mistake."
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It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

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Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1696 on: September 20, 2017, 07:01:58 pm »
I really hope there are some sensible republicans that will oppose this bill, or things are going to become a lot worse in the states for healthcare. The United states has slowly been becoming a country for the rich ever since the 80s. Somethings gotta change.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1697 on: September 20, 2017, 07:07:43 pm »
I really hope there are some sensible republicans that will oppose this bill, or things are going to become a lot worse in the states for healthcare. The United states has slowly been becoming a country for the rich ever since the 80s. Somethings gotta change.

I think Collins is (but then she voted against ACA repeal when Obama was still in office and would veto it anyway).

Paul is apparently against it because it doesn't cut enough.

Murkowski's waiting to find out what it would do to Alaska.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1698 on: September 20, 2017, 08:11:06 pm »
I'm just going to point out that even a war isn't a binary choice where one nation must be eradicated.

If USA or any NATO country is attacked NATO can just beat back the attacker and force them to accept peace (and probably some heavy sanctions starting with reducing their military.)

Granted that USA seems to think otherwise. Iraq and Afghanistan were bombed back to stone age. Afghan specifically tried to surrender but US military went with "LOL nope, we want more blood" and continued fighting the war long after one side was waving the white flag.

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/22/afghanistan-donald-trump-taliban-surrender-here-we-are/

Now, had the surrender been accepted would that have somehow been worse for USA? I mean it would have meant less deaths all around. Less dead US military personnel, less dead Taliban and a lot less dead civilians. They could have kept on hunting Osama even without a war going on. Less money would have been needed for the rebuilding phase for certain.

This is not some video game where the war isn't over until every enemy unit has been shot. In fact, if USA showing up on their doorstep is enough to stop someone from invading a US ally isn't that a good thing? "Oh wait, you were serious about that NATO stuff? Ooopsy daisy, we'll just go back home, ok?" Huzzah! Medals for everyone! Let the diplomats handle the remaining issues.

With all due respect, while true, all of this is really only tangential to the main argument here. First of all, if North Korea does attack the United States or its allies (and for the record, I don't think they would*), it's not going to be with a conventional strike. It's not going to be with a land invasion. I would say by far the two most likely scenarios that do involve North Korea initiating aggressive war would both be nuclear strikes, either on Japan or on US territory in the Pacific Islands (or god forbid, the West Coast.) In either of those two scenarios, there is no turning back. There is no trying to find a peace deal, and I would expect our nation to react to a nuclear strike in kind - especially since living in a prominent state capitol on the West Coast of the US, I'm a potential target (if a low probability one).

The other big factor here is deterrence. The principle of deterrence demands that we show North Korea, even if it's not true, that we are not only capable, but ready and willing to launch a massive retaliatory strike on North Korea if they choose to spark an open conflict - especially a nuclear conflict. Trump, for all his uncountable faults, is at least capable of sounding like he's ready and willing to retaliate (probably because he is). This sort of speech is exactly what you would want to say if you want to loom over North Korea and let them know that if they throw a bomb at a US country, their ass is grass. Which is, I believe (I hope), the main point of all this bluster.

*: Honestly, I should probably mention that I don't think North Korea will ever actually spark a war themselves. They know the position they're in, they're not stupid, and Kim Jong Un's biggest goal isn't to eradicate the US or Japan, it's to stay in power, and staying in power involves not stabbing sleeping dragons in the eye. I think North Korea's end goal here is just internationally recognized independence with the Kim family in control, and they're not about to risk that. However, the caveat we're discussing here is "if North Korea attacks the US or allies", and so I have to discuss it with that in mind - even if it's an outside possibility.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1699 on: September 22, 2017, 05:19:59 am »
If the United States or its allies are attacked. People keep forgetting that second part, and it's important, since it actually makes the position quite reasonable - one might even say obvious.

If America's reaction to being attacked by a hostile state isn't to destroy that state, then what's the point of even having a military?
Military are state annihilation machines? Yeeah, they can be used that way. Kind of like how your car can be used for drag racing-potentially.

Ah yes, the ever fun argument tactic of "ignore the general point of the reply and focus on the wording of the final line".

Direct question: do you think the United States has an obligation to retaliate if it is attacked, especially if we are attacked with a nuclear weapon? Yes or no.
Yes. However, annihilation?

Because all of North Korea being annihilated sounds like a while lotta innocent dead folks.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1700 on: September 22, 2017, 05:22:30 am »
If the United States or its allies are attacked. People keep forgetting that second part, and it's important, since it actually makes the position quite reasonable - one might even say obvious.

If America's reaction to being attacked by a hostile state isn't to destroy that state, then what's the point of even having a military?
Military are state annihilation machines? Yeeah, they can be used that way. Kind of like how your car can be used for drag racing-potentially.

Ah yes, the ever fun argument tactic of "ignore the general point of the reply and focus on the wording of the final line".

Direct question: do you think the United States has an obligation to retaliate if it is attacked, especially if we are attacked with a nuclear weapon? Yes or no.
Yes. However, annihilation?

Because all of North Korea being annihilated sounds like a while lotta innocent dead folks.

Better North Korean innocent dead folks than American innocent dead folks! </Lindsey Graham>
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1701 on: September 22, 2017, 02:10:55 pm »
Grahm-Cassidy is shut down.  McCain has said he's a no.

Ironbite-damn Lindsey....John Boy really gave it to you this time.

Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1702 on: September 22, 2017, 04:10:11 pm »
Thank you once again John McCain.
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Offline Skybison

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1703 on: September 23, 2017, 12:26:40 am »
So is that it for Obamacare repeal?  As I understand it now they need 60 votes to kill it, which means they need democrats, who aren't likely to burn down their biggest accomplishment for the people spitting in their faces the last 8 years.

Offline dpareja

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1704 on: September 23, 2017, 12:36:01 am »
They need 60 as of October 1.

If they can somehow sway two of Susan Collins (didn't vote to repeal the ACA when Obama would veto it anyway), Rand Paul (thinks the bill isn't harsh enough, only voted for previous efforts because there was time to get it through a conference committee), John McCain (no longer beholden to the donors and hates Trump and wants to cement his "maverick" legacy) and Lisa Murkowski (claims she can't be bought off by the bill's leaving the ACA in place for Alaska and also refuses to vote to defund Planned Parenthood which Graham-Cassidy does), then they can do it with Pence's tiebreaking vote.

However, simply the fact that they trotted Graham-Cassidy out makes any healthcare reform far less likely in the near future, because it poisoned the efforts that were going on between the parties to try to make some improvements, even if they're only small and not the sort of changes the party's bases were demanding. (Full repeal for the Republicans and single-payer, or at least a public option, for the Democrats.)

They can use their reconciliation resolution for next year on health care as well, but then tax "reform" would take 60... but for one, a lot of the "centrist" Democrats are beholden to the same donors as the Republicans, who want those tax cuts, and for another, they were probably going to seek 60 anyway, because tax cuts passed through reconciliation with only a simple majority sunset after 10 years. (They'd settle for 50+Pence if they had to, of course.)
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline Skybison

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1705 on: September 23, 2017, 12:56:37 am »
For the record, Trump's wall will be built, it's just going to be invisible

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/352016-trump-southern-border-wall-is-going-to-be-see-through

The fuck... this is actually real.

Offline Id82

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1706 on: September 23, 2017, 01:57:58 am »
So it's a metaphorical wall.
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1707 on: September 23, 2017, 02:00:20 am »
For the record, Trump's wall will be built, it's just going to be invisible

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/352016-trump-southern-border-wall-is-going-to-be-see-through

The fuck... this is actually real.
Well, you can see through air.

Offline niam2023

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1708 on: September 23, 2017, 02:10:34 am »
He's officially as divorced from reality as Hitler. Ordering the movement of armies that do not exist, and ordering the creation of a nonexistent wall that will somehow exist.
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Offline ironbite

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Re: Mr. Trump Goes to Washington
« Reply #1709 on: September 23, 2017, 03:11:37 pm »
And feuding with sports stars.