The Social and Political Issues in Gaming Thread

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Art, did you see me calling for a ban-ever, even in the Topic That Shall Not Be Named?

Because that's going "Jack Thompson", and not what I've ever proposed. Let me defend the arguments I've made and not those of some guy called Jack willya?

No, but you said those sorts of things should never be allowed in video games because it's immoral. That's very much in the spirit of Jack Thompson's schtick.

Whoah, pull up. Where did I say "should never be allowed"? Quote and link.

[Art Vandelay]

So what exactly are you saying here?

If a work of fiction has one kind of socially unacceptable behavior going on then it should let them all in? Sorry, does not follow. Would the people arguing that it's ok to allow various types of bigotry because the characters can get away with in-game murder be ok with rape and pederasty being thrown in as player options? There are two options here "fuck no" or back away from that person very slowly.

So are you saying you do indeed think games should allow the player to be a bigot, rapist or kiddy fiddler, should the devs see fit to include it? While I may be just a big thicky, but it looks to me that at the very least you're heavily implying the opposite.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

What I'm saying is that your freedom to craft and disseminate KittenRaper2000 does not grant you freedom from my condemnation or disgust.

If you do and I show up at your house and smash your games yelling "Kill the pigs, siamese liberation army, my name is Tanya" or even call on the government to ban your stupid game then I'm going Jack Thompson on you.

If I critque your cat raping simulator I'm not. Not even  if I make a series of videos damning your cat raping game and all games like it called "Felinesque Frequency".

It's not "Jack Thompson esque" to be critical, not even if you call something a worthless abomination with no redeeming features. It's not even Jack Thompson behaviour to call on stores not to stock it or to boycott your cat raping productions company. You are following in Jackies footsteps if you want it banned, clear enough?

[Art Vandelay]

The Jack Thompson comparison was not about government censorship, but rather the idea that certain things should never be allowed in games. Whether it's through an official ban or sufficiently strong social pressure is irrelevant.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

The Jack Thompson comparison was not about government censorship, but rather the idea that certain things should never be allowed in games. Whether it's through an official ban or sufficiently strong social pressure is irrelevant.

If you have a game where the protagonist is a detective investigating a pederast child killer I'm cool with that. Clearly there is rape and kiddie fiddling in that game world but it's not dealt with in a grossly exploitative way. If there's an actual kiddie porn game I'm not personally but that's not the same as calling for a ban.

Surely you have no problem with people expressing their discomfort or disgust a thing? If you see that as a slippery slope to "going Jack Thompson" then I'm afraid you'll have to connect the dots for me here.

Also the difference between social pressure and government action is hugely relevant because they are not the same thing. Not remotely.

[Sigmaleph]

Ok but you seem to be smoothly transitioning between "expressing disgust and condemnation" and "call on stores not to stock it or to boycott your cat raping productions company". Which, um. At some point you've crossed from 'this is not my thing' to 'I want to stop people from buying this game'.

Social pressure and government action are different things, but they exist on a spectrum of tools that can be used to ban something (and you definitely can try to ban something through social pressure).

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Ok but you seem to be smoothly transitioning between "expressing disgust and condemnation" and "call on stores not to stock it or to boycott your cat raping productions company". Which, um. At some point you've crossed from 'this is not my thing' to 'I want to stop people from buying this game'.

Social pressure and government action are different things, but they exist on a spectrum of tools that can be used to ban something (and you definitely can try to ban something through social pressure).

What I'm saying is that crticism is as protected in a free marketplace of ideas as edgy games are.

Also a call to a particular store not to stock a game is not necessarily a call to cut off everyone's access. Take the Target ban of GTA in Australia. The call was from parents who didn't want the hame in that store because they didn't want their kids to get access to it. There was no similar call for EB games or JB HiFi to do the same despite these chains sharing mallspace with Target Australia. Hence it was those parents exercising their freedom of speech to ask that the game be not available to small children in one specific location.

And I personally have zero problems with that!

[Art Vandelay]

Surely you have no problem with people expressing their discomfort or disgust a thing? If you see that as a slippery slope to "going Jack Thompson" then I'm afraid you'll have to connect the dots for me here.

Of course. Expressing disgust is one thing, but saying it should not be allowed is entirely another.

Also the difference between social pressure and government action is hugely relevant because they are not the same thing. Not remotely.

I never said they were. Just that the difference between the two has nothing to do with the point I was making.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

What I said was that if someone were into rapey/kiddie fiddly games I would back away slowly and advise anyone else in their right mind to do likewise.

K?

[Art Vandelay]

What I said was that if someone were into rapey/kiddie fiddly games I would back away slowly and advise anyone else in their right mind to do likewise.

K?

No, you didn't. You said if someone said we should allow rapey/kiddie fiddly games.

Would the people arguing that it's ok to allow various types of bigotry because the characters can get away with in-game murder be ok with rape and pederasty being thrown in as player options? There are two options here "fuck no" or back away from that person very slowly.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

No, I'm not personally ok with allowing child porn or rape porn in games. I'm not calling on the state to ban them either and yes, there's a difference.

If I say "this thing is fucked, I'm not ok with it" I'm not calling the cops on you.

[Art Vandelay]

There you go, hence the Jack Thompson comparison. You think something should not be allowed in the world of make-believe because it's immoral. Whether or not government bans are involved is entirely besides the point.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

Except for the point where something is done to actually, you know-prevent anybody from doing anything.

That little thing.

[Art Vandelay]

As Sigma pointed out earlier, a strong enough social taboo can be just as effective. Hell, far more so, considering how impotent bans on media are nowadays.

In any case, no one even brought up bans except for you. I've said many times already I was comparing your views, not your actions to Thompson. You can stop whipping that strawman out any time now.

[Tolpuddle Martyr]

As Sigma pointed out earlier, a strong enough social taboo can be just as effective. Hell, far more so, considering how impotent bans on media are nowadays.

In any case, no one even brought up bans except for you. I've said many times already I was comparing your views, not your actions to Thompson. You can stop whipping that strawman out any time now.

Thompsons views were not what madee him notable, what was notable was the call for action. I am not calling for action.

Yes I think some things are awful and shouldn't be done-there's a huge gulf between my personal opinion and an action to enforce my belief.

I'm allowed to have opinions, if you have a problem with me having said opinions then your stance isn't that different to mine. I'm doing something you disagree with but you aren't going to call the powers that be to make me stop. So my opinions are safe, and so are the rape games.

Just a quick reminder, Thompson didn't even consider games to be speech that people shouldn't be making. He didn't consider them speech but rather "dangerous physical appliances". I've never made an argument that's even remotely similar.

Look Art. I think you shouldn't make a rape porn game or a kiddie porn game for the same reason that I think you shouldn't pick your nose and eat it. It's disgusting, but if you want that sweet, sweet snot I can't stop you.