Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 1541770 times)

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Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #705 on: July 28, 2013, 02:33:37 am »
I do want to point out let's not confuse spirit animal with otherkin or therian. They are completely different. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

A spirit animal, in the real term not the "Oh Tom Hiddleston is my spirit animal" way, is a teacher. A guide. Which isn't at all close to the whole otherkin/therian thing at all.
I am going to be a really big pain in the ass, because this is my pet peeve. Apples and oranges are both see-containing fruit with skins that are somewhat hard, intended to protect them, and are warm colors on the color wheel. Both grow from trees, both are edible, both are sweet, both are made into snacks, juices and various confections. Both are common in still life paintings, and both are healthy foods. Why the fuck are they the go-to for "completely different things"? We can't even say it's from olden times, because, IIRC, "apple" used to mean "fruit". Sorry, the rant's not directed at you, the phrase just really pisses me off.

Apples are temperate climate crops and oranges are sub-tropical. One requires a winter to grow whereas will kill the other. One has a hard tightly adhering skin that is edible while the other has a soft loosely attached skin that is largely inedible. The seeds of one are contained in a central core, the seeds of the other are scattered throughout. Cultivation, pest control, harvesting, processing, and types of products produced bare a passing similarity at best.


The beauty of the saying is that they are broadly similar, you would think that it is possible to compare them -- until you look at the details and realize that they are very different and that while making generalizations is possible making meaningful comparisons is not.
Pest control, harvesting and processing are man-made differences. Naturally, pest control is mostly luck, harvesting is picking it and processing is what your large intestine does. The other ares are minor differences vs. the rest. They're also a similar size, weight and toughness.

Why are man-made differences less valid, when it's humans doing the comparison?

What do I care about apples and oranges except as they relate to me?  The fact that they require very different cultivation methods, taste quite different to me, and are eaten differently, are plenty enough difference. 
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #706 on: July 28, 2013, 08:51:40 am »
Why are man-made differences less valid, when it's humans doing the comparison?

Because you're human, and therefore any differences you make are meaningless.  Or somesuch bullshit, I dunno.  I honestly don't get the whole "IT DOESN'T COUNT IF HUMANS DO IT!!!!!11!!1!1ELEVENTY" thing.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #707 on: July 28, 2013, 09:11:29 am »
I do want to point out let's not confuse spirit animal with otherkin or therian. They are completely different. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

A spirit animal, in the real term not the "Oh Tom Hiddleston is my spirit animal" way, is a teacher. A guide. Which isn't at all close to the whole otherkin/therian thing at all.
I am going to be a really big pain in the ass, because this is my pet peeve. Apples and oranges are both see-containing fruit with skins that are somewhat hard, intended to protect them, and are warm colors on the color wheel. Both grow from trees, both are edible, both are sweet, both are made into snacks, juices and various confections. Both are common in still life paintings, and both are healthy foods. Why the fuck are they the go-to for "completely different things"? We can't even say it's from olden times, because, IIRC, "apple" used to mean "fruit". Sorry, the rant's not directed at you, the phrase just really pisses me off.

Apples are temperate climate crops and oranges are sub-tropical. One requires a winter to grow whereas will kill the other. One has a hard tightly adhering skin that is edible while the other has a soft loosely attached skin that is largely inedible. The seeds of one are contained in a central core, the seeds of the other are scattered throughout. Cultivation, pest control, harvesting, processing, and types of products produced bare a passing similarity at best.


The beauty of the saying is that they are broadly similar, you would think that it is possible to compare them -- until you look at the details and realize that they are very different and that while making generalizations is possible making meaningful comparisons is not.
Pest control, harvesting and processing are man-made differences. Naturally, pest control is mostly luck, harvesting is picking it and processing is what your large intestine does. The other ares are minor differences vs. the rest. They're also a similar size, weight and toughness.

Why are man-made differences less valid, when it's humans doing the comparison?

What do I care about apples and oranges except as they relate to me?  The fact that they require very different cultivation methods, taste quite different to me, and are eaten differently, are plenty enough difference. 
Two reasons: first off, it's an old phrase, and that evidence comes after the phrase's creation. So, the makers of the phrase (sadly, the origin is unknown, but it's got to be old for how many languages it's in) did not think of it like that. Secondly, because we're comparing apples and oranges, not human viewpoints on apples and oranges. And, they're not eaten extremely differently (outside of skinning one and not the other, they're pretty much the same, you don't normally use condiments or a fork or a spoon or cook one). They taste more similar than different (apples and oranges certainly are more similar than steak and oranges, or apples and broccoli, or apples and chocolate, or pizza and oranges). Both are also eaten uncooked and unfrozen, by the way.
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #708 on: July 28, 2013, 09:53:02 am »
Are we seriously having a multi-page debate over the similarities and differences between apples of oranges?
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #709 on: July 28, 2013, 09:53:31 am »
Are we seriously having a multi-page debate over the similarities and differences between apples of oranges?

F'n A we are!

Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #710 on: July 28, 2013, 10:03:48 am »
Quick, post your legs!
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #711 on: July 28, 2013, 10:12:41 am »
I think we should enshrine this somewhere, just to prove that these forums can argue over anything.

Offline Jack Mann

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #712 on: July 28, 2013, 10:31:23 am »
Dammit, Mlle, we are nerds.  We are nerds on the internet.  If we don't have this argument, then who the hell will?  Those damned LARPers down at the Chortling Goblin?  I don't think so.

PHH, humans have been cultivating both apples and oranges for longer than there has been an English language.  I daresay that most of those differences were pretty well known before the phrase was grown.  Sure, they didn't know about things like genetics, but they did know that apples grew well one way, oranges another.  They knew that the ways you harvested the one didn't apply to the other.  And you don't eat the two the same.  You almost always peel an orange, and then eat the easily-separable pieces.  Peeling an orange amounts to pulling the skin away.  Apples typically aren't peeled when eaten plain, and if they are, it involves a knife. 

And no shit they're less different than, say, apples and steak or oranges and radioactive waste.  That's the point.  They're something that is similar enough that someone might compare it.  No one's gonna compare an apple to a cow.  But at the same time, you can't fault an apple for not being a good orange.  You can't fault an orange for not having a nice smooth green skin.  That's why this is a vital issue to the American People in these troubled times.
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Offline PosthumanHeresy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #713 on: July 28, 2013, 10:44:33 am »
Dammit, Mlle, we are nerds.  We are nerds on the internet.  If we don't have this argument, then who the hell will?  Those damned LARPers down at the Chortling Goblin?  I don't think so.

PHH, humans have been cultivating both apples and oranges for longer than there has been an English language.  I daresay that most of those differences were pretty well known before the phrase was grown.  Sure, they didn't know about things like genetics, but they did know that apples grew well one way, oranges another.  They knew that the ways you harvested the one didn't apply to the other.  And you don't eat the two the same.  You almost always peel an orange, and then eat the easily-separable pieces.  Peeling an orange amounts to pulling the skin away.  Apples typically aren't peeled when eaten plain, and if they are, it involves a knife. 

And no shit they're less different than, say, apples and steak or oranges and radioactive waste.  That's the point.  They're something that is similar enough that someone might compare it.  No one's gonna compare an apple to a cow.  But at the same time, you can't fault an apple for not being a good orange.  You can't fault an orange for not having a nice smooth green skin.  That's why this is a vital issue to the American People in these troubled times.
We may have been cultivating them for a long period of time, but we were harvesting and processing them the same way. People pick them, place them in baskets. Later, they eat them. Also, I didn't say you ate then the exact same way, I said it's extremely similar. Again, you eat most foods in a much different way. Also, I rarely hear it being used to say "comparing things that are similar but not the same".

From Wikipedia: A comparison of apples and oranges occurs when two items or groups of items are compared that cannot be practically compared.

From McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs, on "apples and oranges": two entities that are not similar

From Cambridge Idioms Dictionary, 2nd ed: if two people or things are apples and oranges, they are completely different

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Offline Mira

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #714 on: July 28, 2013, 11:15:27 am »
Jesus Fucking Christ, what the fuck?'

ETA: Goddamn fucking hell
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #715 on: July 28, 2013, 11:19:59 am »
"Je me presse de rire de tout, de peur d'être obligé d'en pleurer."

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Offline Mira

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #716 on: July 28, 2013, 11:43:49 am »
I agree
I’ve grown overfed, unconcerned and comfortably numb
Kept busy indulging in the pleasures of the wealthy
Oh, someone make me afraid of what I’ve become!

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #717 on: July 28, 2013, 03:22:05 pm »
This is probably one of the weirder debates we've had on the forum.

This is also why I love this place.  Well, one of the reasons why, at least.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #718 on: July 28, 2013, 03:50:24 pm »
Allow me to further mess things up by pointing out that, according to The Ultimate Authority on Everything*, the following expressions have meanings equivalent to "apples and oranges":

Serbian: Поредити бабе и жабе (comparing grandmothers and toads)
Romanian: baba şi mitraliera (the grandmother and the machine gun); vaca şi izmenele (the cow and the longjohns); țiganul şi carioca (the gypsy and the marker)
Danish: Hvad er højest, Rundetårn eller et tordenskrald? (What is highest, the Round Tower or a thunderclap?)
Russian: сравнивать тёплое с мягким (to compare warm and soft).

So, which is it? Are apples an oranges supposed to be "similar yet different", or "have fuck-all to do with each other"? If the first, then how are these expressions equivalent? If the second, why choose apples and oranges, with all the similarities they actually do have?

I hereby propose that people who mean to say "Completely different" use something like "Constitutional monarchies and toothpicks", and reserve "apples and oranges" for the purpose of speaking of things that have similarities but should be considered separately.


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« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 03:51:56 pm by Sigmaleph »
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #719 on: July 28, 2013, 05:31:07 pm »
I should've never posted that Goddamn phrase is that what you are telling me?

To break up the apples and oranges debate:

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