FSTDT Forums
Rubbish => Preaching and Worship => Topic started by: Cerim Treascair on January 20, 2013, 01:07:46 am
-
This... is a hard topic for me to write about. Thanks to a friend of mine, however, I think... I'm starting to regain the faith that religion and hard things in my life stole from me.
This is in part directed at him, who I'm still trying to get onto this forum, and in part to explain what's been swirling in my head for a month or two now.
Start from the beginning... I've mentioned to some of you that I've had a rough go of it. Some of you know the details. Many don't. I'll lay my cards on the table, even if all I have are aces and eights.
I'm 29 years old. When I was three, I was pretty... precocious. Getting my hands on books to read on my own, things like that. I was put in pre-pre-school. Yes, there is such a thing. So, time passes, and I come home one day to tell my parents that the teacher was 'sticking hot dogs up my butt'. They thought I was just telling stories. Dad, however, had a feeling, and got me taken out. Six months later? News story about the teacher and his wife were arrested on 26 counts of child molestation.
No, I never got therapy.
Fast forward to when I was seven. I was already getting 'favorite' relatives. Dad was, and still is, my fucking hero to this day. My uncle Robert was one such favorite relative, and he didn't sugarcoat things. Very blunt, very "this is how the world works" kinda guy. He had a habit every Friday, of hitting the local bar after his work shift was over at the mill, having two beers, heading home. Like clockwork. One week, he said hello to a girl who was sitting next to him, and they got to chatting while he drank. He polished them off, said good night to the regulars, and went home. Unfortunately, the girl he was talking to had a jealous boyfriend who was convinced that she was cheating on him... so when he saw her talking to my uncle...
... he followed my uncle home, broke into the garage, and took a 2x4 from there, and found the bedroom in the house... and raised the 2x4. He dragged my uncle's body out of the house, and dumped him in a ditch outside of town. We didn't find him for three days, which is when we got the call from my aunt about his murder. They caught the guy... and gave him 16 years for pre-meditated murder.
No, I didn't get therapy.
So, what's this got to do with Faith vis a vis religion... I asked god, after my uncle's murder, 'why'... I never got an answer. I grew up surrounded by folks that didn't practice what they preached, to say the least. I turned my back on faith for good when I was 13. After all, it'd brought me nothing but pain and misery and hadn't helped me with any answers in life. Or so I thought.
I met a guy through a fanfic website. Yes, it's for pony. No, this isn't going to turn into a pony thread, and if anybody gets any bright ideas, I'm going to get your posts nuked. Clear?
So, this guy... conservative Christian guy. Nearly my diametric opposite. Yet, somehow, some way, we hit it off. I proudly, happily call this guy my friend. Someday, if we get close enough, I may even be fortunate enough to call him my brother, something I'd like dearly. He and I went back and forth on so many things, and still do. Predestination. Free will vs. omnipotence. Creationism. And I realized something. In him, through him, my faith is being re-ignited and burning brightly once more. I never thought I'd feel this way again. Do we disagree? vehemently, on some things. However, it's through those disagreements that I find I understand the bible better. I'm not getting badgered into "believe this or burn in hell" bullshit. I'm not getting told "you don't believe in what I do, you're an evil person" stuff either. And I could honestly talk to him for years about this sort of thing. We've even gotten into studying bible verses together, and he has historical context and references to back him up. It's wonderful.
So, to Fyrenn, if he reads this... thanks, my friend. You may well have saved my life.
To the rest of you... have you encountered anything similar? where faith is proving to be the better foundation than the religion you were raised in?
-
Faith is belief without evidence. Religion is organized faith.
-
Faith is belief without evidence. Religion is organized faith.
-_-
@Priestling
I'm glad to hear you're getting your faith back again.
I'm still kinda lost myself. Been raised in an organized religion, loved it with all of my heart, but got stabbed in the back multiple times before I finally left it.
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/
-
Personally, I used to be a lot more hostile to the idea of religion than I am now. The thing that was always a major hangup for me being involved in any religion was that, simply put, I could not believe it without evidence. As I got older, I recognized that if I were to become involved in a religion, then I would definitely have some sort of faith, but I would always differentiate myself from people who truly "believed" because I would admit, right off the bat, that there was no proof of what I was saying or doing, and that by all logical standards I should not have faith in it. (I think Kirkegaard, a Christian existentialist, said it best when he said, "Faith is absurd.") I would become religious because of the psychological or symbolic benefit for myself, not because I had any hopes of getting into heaven or impressing others with my piety.
-
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/
Why does it make you feel empty?
-
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/
Why does it make you feel empty?
I don't understand it myself, and thus can't explain it.
-
I haven't been able to find anything to replace it yet, and straight up atheism makes me feel empty :-/
Why does it make you feel empty?
I don't understand it myself, and thus can't explain it.
I'm a-thinkin' that I need to get you and Fyrenn together. He did wonders for my peace of mind (and damn, is the boy patient with my ass...), I think he could help you, too.
-
If he's as conservative as you say, shouldn't he want nothing to do with your ass?
-
If he's as conservative as you say, shouldn't he want nothing to do with your ass?
I'll admit, that made me laugh :3 well played!
-
Personally, I used to be a lot more hostile to the idea of religion than I am now. The thing that was always a major hangup for me being involved in any religion was that, simply put, I could not believe it without evidence. As I got older, I recognized that if I were to become involved in a religion, then I would definitely have some sort of faith, but I would always differentiate myself from people who truly "believed" because I would admit, right off the bat, that there was no proof of what I was saying or doing, and that by all logical standards I should not have faith in it. (I think Kirkegaard, a Christian existentialist, said it best when he said, "Faith is absurd.") I would become religious because of the psychological or symbolic benefit for myself, not because I had any hopes of getting into heaven or impressing others with my piety.
I actually agree with your post, but I would add that religion performs a useful sociocultural function that non-religious groups do not fully replicate. So I am willing to concede that religion has a degree of social utility which somewhat balances out its negative aspects.
Likewise, with respect to Priestling's OP, religion also provides a degree of emotional support that secular/non-religious groups cannot provide. It is your choice alone whether or not you wish to avail yourself of that.
Also, sorry to hear about the negative things to happen in your past...I hope you find the happiness you seek.
-
Faith and religion provide a lot of good for people. And they can both provide a lot of bad. People have been saved by faith, and people have been killed by it. Religious organizations have cared for others and killed others.
Blanket statements like "Religion is a cancer" or "Faith is stupidity" is a pointless black and white view of the world; you're either good or evil, smart or dumb. What's important is what YOU make of it, and what morals YOU have. Those who commit crimes in the name of religion probably would have done evil without religion. It just provides a convenient excuse for their lack of morals.
-
I'm curious as to whether or not there's any non-anecdotal evidence that supports the assertion that religious groups can provide more/better support to their members than secular groups. I'd also like to know what sociocultural functions religion serves that can't be replicated via secular means, and aren't complete fabrications.
Seriously...what role does religion play that can't be replicated by secularism? From what I've seen, for every role religion plays, secularism can replicate it. Support? Family and friends. Just because you don't worship a god doesn't mean you don't have family and friends who love you and are willing to support you in a time of need, to the best of their abilities. Charity? Sorry, we do that, too, religion isn't special in that regard, either. Education? Secularism not only replicates this, but does it better than religion ever has; children are more likely to listen and hold on to facts than fables.
Religion is just a way to explain the parts of life that are (currently) unknown and/or frightening to its adherents, along with providing some (many times, loose) moral codes. Death is frightening, and some turn to religion to make it less so, some simply accept it as a fact of the way in which we're built and how the laws of nature act upon us. Lightning was (and is still, to some) frightening, but it is not mysterious, it is not magic, it is not the work of Zeus or Thor, but of simple laws of nature acting upon one another and the environment. Religion explains away the unknowns of life with mysticism; secularism just says that it doesn't currently know. People use whatever is best for them and, so long as they don't use it to harm others or infringe upon their rights, that's not a bad thing. You adhere to faith, doctrine, and mysticism, and I do not. Religion doesn't make you special, it doesn't make you somehow more capable of empathy toward your fellow man or make you more charitable, unless you let it. Even then, it is not the religion that changed how you behaved, it was your decision, your action, that changed you.
It boils down to this: religion does not make a person good, it does not make a person charitable, kind, or loving. That is because of the person's actions. This much, has always been true.
-
^^ This, so hard. And really, saying that religion provides a type of support that secular groups cannot replicate... that depends on if you're religious or not. Religion can provide emotional support if you believe in a loving deity who will grant you with paradise for being a genuinely good person, but as an atheist, I really wouldn't count that as emotional support for myself. I'd view it as more of a way to further ignore my problems, if anything. I dunno, it's hard to find the words to explain my point.
-
I've recently started equating religion as some sort of, I don't want to say character flaw, but sort of a nobody's perfect aspect. For example, John gets himself half drunk every night. My feeling is as long as he's doing this at home, and he gets up and goes to work every day, as long as it's not effecting his life too bad, then it's fine. Or like Mary smokes. She never smokes in the house or in the car with people. Sure, if they're driving any distance she'll make more stops than necessary, but she'll keep it out of the car. So she's taking steps to keep it from effecting others, Cool. Religion is the same for me. As long as you're keeping it under control, fine.
-
I've recently started equating religion as some sort of, I don't want to say character flaw, but sort of a nobody's perfect aspect. For example, John gets himself half drunk every night. My feeling is as long as he's doing this at home, and he gets up and goes to work every day, as long as it's not effecting his life too bad, then it's fine. Or like Mary smokes. She never smokes in the house or in the car with people. Sure, if they're driving any distance she'll make more stops than necessary, but she'll keep it out of the car. So she's taking steps to keep it from effecting others, Cool. Religion is the same for me. As long as you're keeping it under control, fine.
>implying that being religious is as inherently bad or destructive for your body as drinking or smoking
-
I don't think smoking is the greatest example because it'll harm you even in moderation, but it makes sense for drinking.
-
I don't think smoking is the greatest example because it'll harm you even in moderation, but it makes sense for drinking.
I can't personally understand why drinking would bring meaning to anyone's life. But I understand the appeal behind religion because some people need it to feel that they are loved, that there is a plan, and that they are part of something greater and more just. In that respect, I have trouble condemning religious people as inherently inferior to nonreligious people. They should be judged by their actions, not by their beliefs. If their beliefs or nonbeliefs help make them better people, good for them.
-
He wasn't saying that the two are alike in that alcohol can also bring meaning to a person's life. He stated that too much of either one can be harmful for you, and that's true. Alcoholism can lead to physical and psychological harming of yourself and others, and although too much religion doesn't do direct physical harm, fundamentalism is an unhealthy mindset overall and can lead to destructive behaviors, ultimately.
-
He wasn't saying that the two are alike in that alcohol can also bring meaning to a person's life. He stated that too much of either one can be harmful for you, and that's true. Alcoholism can lead to physical and psychological harming of yourself and others, and although too much religion doesn't do direct physical harm, fundamentalism is an unhealthy mindset overall and can lead to destructive behaviors, ultimately.
Ah, okay then.
-
I've always had faith. Faith not so much in a particular code or religion, but in a controlling higher power. I don't feel it's a terribly hard jump of logic to have a certain amount of faith in that. I see religion as imperfect attempts of humans to grasp something so terribly beyond them messed together with social control to a degree, though that effort has gone to the wayside and instead provides community. Larger than family and friends. It also provides guidance that is lacking in secular society. Sometimes having a few base guidelines can be nice. When you're a child, being told to 'figure it out' when it comes to complicated issues like morality, ethics, and other things is not good. I didn't fully form my moral code until I had taken a basic philosophy class because I had been exposed heavily to religious morals/ethics, and exposure to philosophical, secular morals made a huge difference. People need guidance. Not saying they'll go insane, just being lost makes plenty of people depressed or shallow. Religion provides that in a seemingly cruel and indifferent universe, though beautiful all told.
-
I've always had faith. Faith not so much in a particular code or religion, but in a controlling higher power. I don't feel it's a terribly hard jump of logic to have a certain amount of faith in that. I see religion as imperfect attempts of humans to grasp something so terribly beyond them messed together with social control to a degree, though that effort has gone to the wayside and instead provides community. Larger than family and friends. It also provides guidance that is lacking in secular society. Sometimes having a few base guidelines can be nice. When you're a child, being told to 'figure it out' when it comes to complicated issues like morality, ethics, and other things is not good. I didn't fully form my moral code until I had taken a basic philosophy class because I had been exposed heavily to religious morals/ethics, and exposure to philosophical, secular morals made a huge difference. People need guidance. Not saying they'll go insane, just being lost makes plenty of people depressed or shallow. Religion provides that in a seemingly cruel and indifferent universe, though beautiful all told.
What type of community does it provide that is larger than family and friends?
Also, the absence of religion doesn't mean a parent will simply tell a child "Figure it out." You can raise a child with good morals without bringing any gods into the picture.
-
There are indeed pure atheist families where both parents raise their child with morals and a love of life without bringing religion into it. They don't necessarily raise their child "as an atheist" in the same way that you would raise a child "as a Catholic." They don't raise the child to specifically believe that religion is a sham, or that religious people are delusional. There's almost definitely children who have been raised this way simply because of statistical probability, but they're not exactly the majority of non-religious families.
Teaching morality is something that can very easily be done totally separate from religion. You don't exactly see atheists raping and pillaging, especially not ones who were never raised as part of any organized religion at any part of their life. Someone who only engages in moral acts because they were made to fear punishment from a higher power, or because they want to earn a reward from that higher power, is not a truly moral or altruistic person.
-
He wasn't saying that the two are alike in that alcohol can also bring meaning to a person's life. He stated that too much of either one can be harmful for you, and that's true. Alcoholism can lead to physical and psychological harming of yourself and others, and although too much religion doesn't do direct physical harm, fundamentalism is an unhealthy mindset overall and can lead to destructive behaviors, ultimately.
Pretty much that.
Everyone has habits or some sort of character flaw. Everyone. Me, you, that cutie you had a crush on in junior high, the local weatherman, captains of industry, everyone. So, oddly, I don't feel I can judge someone for believing in something I don't as long as they don't take it to the extreme. If you think smoking is a bad example, then replace it with biting fingernails or enjoying South Park.
-
I've always had faith. Faith not so much in a particular code or religion, but in a controlling higher power. I don't feel it's a terribly hard jump of logic to have a certain amount of faith in that. I see religion as imperfect attempts of humans to grasp something so terribly beyond them messed together with social control to a degree, though that effort has gone to the wayside and instead provides community. Larger than family and friends. It also provides guidance that is lacking in secular society. Sometimes having a few base guidelines can be nice. When you're a child, being told to 'figure it out' when it comes to complicated issues like morality, ethics, and other things is not good. I didn't fully form my moral code until I had taken a basic philosophy class because I had been exposed heavily to religious morals/ethics, and exposure to philosophical, secular morals made a huge difference. People need guidance. Not saying they'll go insane, just being lost makes plenty of people depressed or shallow. Religion provides that in a seemingly cruel and indifferent universe, though beautiful all told.
What type of community does it provide that is larger than family and friends?
Also, the absence of religion doesn't mean a parent will simply tell a child "Figure it out." You can raise a child with good morals without bringing any gods into the picture.
You need communal activities to build friends and acquitances and religion stereotypically provides this service. That said, I stated myself poorly. What I was trying to say was that traditionally religion provides a basis for these services and some Atheists have proposed a similar 'secular religion' type of guidance and community, though others have back lashed because they feel the 'fight it out' method is key to atheism... for some reason.
Though I mentioned I didn't feel comfortable with my moral codes until I meshed a certain portion of religious with secular philosophical, so I just feel like someone is not complete without investigation. Even if religion is wrong for a person, I feel there is something gained by the perspective.
-
The only thing I really have an issue with is trying to force your beliefs on your kids. Teach them, take em to church, but don't oh, I dunno, burn their Magic: The Gathering cards because you think they're daemonic, which is what my dad did to my bro when we were kids. Also bugs the fuck outta me when parents try to guilt trip their kids into staying in the fold should they show signs of deviating from "the path." If they deviate, let them, don't be obnoxious snot-rags about it.
-
You need communal activities to build friends and acquitances and religion stereotypically provides this service. That said, I stated myself poorly. What I was trying to say was that traditionally religion provides a basis for these services and some Atheists have proposed a similar 'secular religion' type of guidance and community, though others have back lashed because they feel the 'fight it out' method is key to atheism... for some reason.
There are plenty of ways to build friends and acquaintances outside of church. And I honestly wouldn't want to use a church gathering as a way to meet people because you have such a range of ages attending that it's going to be harder to find someone in your age group, let alone someone with similar interests/humor/whatever who's worth talking to. Whether you can even obtain this sense of community largely depends on where you live, as well, because so many cities (even those with bordering suburbs) have people with demanding jobs, or those who simply prefer their privacy. Community is something that's becoming outdated.
Though I mentioned I didn't feel comfortable with my moral codes until I meshed a certain portion of religious with secular philosophical, so I just feel like someone is not complete without investigation. Even if religion is wrong for a person, I feel there is something gained by the perspective.
I'm not against people exploring religion at all, but I don't see why you have to mix religious and philosophical moral codes to be complete.
-
Honestly, I think there's a simple answer to what religion/spirituality can provide that most secular things don't seem to provide.
Namely, spirituality. It sounds... really weird. But I don't see religion as just a method of explaining things that can't be understood. It probably started that way, but it seems to have evolved into something... more complex, let's say.
There's a big difference between going to, say, a coven assembly and going to hang out with your friends at the pub.
Regardless, spirituality. It's ... argh, hard to put into words. It's like satisfying a subconscious hunger almost.
-
I guess I don't like it when people say church provides something that secular things can't because (to me) it implies that everyone has a need for spirituality, and that atheists are missing out on it. As if we have a hole in our hearts. No. I'm not spiritual. I have zero desire to be that way, and I have no need for it. Some people do and that's dandy. But everyone is different. For some people, church can provide a way to express that spirituality, and for others, it does absolutely zero. I'm in the latter group.
-
And for some, like me, church is (or at least was) an extremely draining experience and my parents' religion is one of the reasons my childhood was almost total, complete shit.
-
I guess I don't like it when people say church provides something that secular things can't because (to me) it implies that everyone has a need for spirituality, and that atheists are missing out on it. As if we have a hole in our hearts.
Why the fuck would anyone here be implying that?
No, I don't think anything is wrong with you just because you aren't spiritual. Just that some people have different desires than others, and that's not something that a secular group can always fill.
If anything, I've been trying hard not to misinterpret some posts here as saying that there's something wrong with us BECAUSE we're spiritual x_x because of my defensive nature.
And for some, like me, church is (or at least was) an extremely draining experience and my parents' religion is one of the reasons my childhood was almost total, complete shit.
Yeah, that happens far more often than it should >_<
-
I guess I don't like it when people say church provides something that secular things can't because (to me) it implies that everyone has a need for spirituality, and that atheists are missing out on it. As if we have a hole in our hearts.
Why the fuck would anyone here be implying that?
No, I don't think anything is wrong with you just because you aren't spiritual. Just that some people have different desires than others, and that's not something that a secular group can always fill.
If anything, I've been trying hard not to misinterpret some posts here as saying that there's something wrong with us BECAUSE we're spiritual x_x because of my defensive nature.
I was referring to people I've talked to IRL. I should've worded that better. I'm sure most folks on here know better than to think we all have heart holes.
-
Nonreligious people are not necessarily lacking something because they are nonreligious.
Spiritual people are not necessarily weaker, stupider, or more desperate simply because they are spiritual.
-
Nobody here is saying that, Zachski. I think Sleepy is talking about the world she lives in, people she might see face to face. Or on other boards.
For what it's worth, the only thing church provides with any concrete benefits is an extremely convenient place for a group of people to meet with some regularity. Honestly, I believe we do just as good a job here as that. But the internet can't always match real human to human contact.
-
Just to poke my head back into my own thread here, to expand on Rookie's last point: I don't know my buddy Fyrenn face to face. But we're close enough, I've laid enough of myself and my past on the line to basically send him running... and he didn't. I cherish the guy like very little else in my life. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd like to call him my brother, because we feel that close.
-
I'm a lazy Pagan and I like the idea that maybe, someone, out of the many deities out there in my faith, someone actually gives a shit about me.
It doesn't entirely make sense, sure.
And I don't rely on said deity to help me out when times are tough. I don't just pray it away. Though there is one prayer that helps me simply because it's a chant and gets my mind off of other things.
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
Something I've heard, I forget from where, but I find it applies very well to things like this: Tis better to be hated for being what you are than to be loved for trying to be something you're not.
Besides, if you want a hobby, there's far better ways to find one than by lying to yourself and others.
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
A douchey atheist would have been douchey anywhere else. There seems to be a great tendency among arrogant assholes to use their atheism as a sign of their intelligence, claiming that anyone with religious beliefs is a troglodyte scared of a fairy in the sky. Since atheism, by nature, attracts those who use logical reasoning to come to the conclusion about a lack of gods, it's a popular choice for assholes who want to feel that they're smarter than all the "sheeple."
I personally think that anyone who uses the term "sheeple" unironically should be thrown over a desk.
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
A douchey atheist would have been douchey anywhere else. There seems to be a great tendency among arrogant assholes to use their atheism as a sign of their intelligence, claiming that anyone with religious beliefs is a troglodyte scared of a fairy in the sky. Since atheism, by nature, attracts those who use logical reasoning to come to the conclusion about a lack of gods, it's a popular choice for assholes who want to feel that they're smarter than all the "sheeple."
I personally think that anyone who uses the term "sheeple" unironically should be thrown over a desk.
Either they gravitate towards atheism, or they gravitate towards conspiracy theories. Both make their adherents feel like they're a step above everyone else because they know the "troof".
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
You don't need to be a certain religion just to talk to people. That's silly.
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
You don't need to be a certain religion just to talk to people. That's silly.
Well, talk to more people. I'm pretty outgoing.
-
You need communal activities to build friends and acquitances and religion stereotypically provides this service. That said, I stated myself poorly. What I was trying to say was that traditionally religion provides a basis for these services and some Atheists have proposed a similar 'secular religion' type of guidance and community, though others have back lashed because they feel the 'fight it out' method is key to atheism... for some reason.
There are plenty of ways to build friends and acquaintances outside of church. And I honestly wouldn't want to use a church gathering as a way to meet people because you have such a range of ages attending that it's going to be harder to find someone in your age group, let alone someone with similar interests/humor/whatever who's worth talking to. Whether you can even obtain this sense of community largely depends on where you live, as well, because so many cities (even those with bordering suburbs) have people with demanding jobs, or those who simply prefer their privacy. Community is something that's becoming outdated.
Some people with a lack of community get saddened or may fall into depression due to lack of social contact. I also... well mentioned that there is an idea for secular institutions with the express purpose of community building and guidance. I mentioned Churches as the 'traditional' get together kind of place, as in that it is most common for churches to serve this purpose historically but does not mean it is the sole arbiter of it into the future. I mean, my dad mentions how going to church was a good time to meet with people. After church, it's never uncommon for people to congregate and meet who are little more than acquittance and chat a little to get to know each other. It's a step by step. I really don't understand your anti-community stance in the least, to be honest. Secular or Religious, there's nothing wrong with people being more interconnected.
And for some, like me, church is (or at least was) an extremely draining experience and my parents' religion is one of the reasons my childhood was almost total, complete shit.
Really depends on A: How Forced it is and B: How the pastor/minister is. Had a good pastor for a while so I was excited by my religion, but he retired and got a really terrible one that basically made me want to quit the religion just to get away from his terriblinessness.
I personally think that anyone who uses the term "sheeple" unironically should be thrown over a desk.
The word makes my skin crawl when it's not used in reference or irony.
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
Most atheists come from hardliner conservative religions, so they tend to turn into hardliner conservative atheists. They don't see that the attitude is the problem, the hardline and conservative aspects, but their religion or lack thereof. This sort of attitude is a poor method of going about life, but like most hardliners they tend to be real dickweeds about things. I have a hardline atheist as my roommate for three months and the guy's overconfidence in his knowledge was staggering.
Hobbies are good, though I could only offer video gaming, history research, and tabletop gaming over interwebs here.
-
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
You don't need to be a certain religion just to talk to people. That's silly.
Well, talk to more people. I'm pretty outgoing.
I still don't understand the need. I mean, if you have to be Christian in order to talk to someone, then I doubt you want to talk to that person in the first place.
Some people with a lack of community get saddened or may fall into depression due to lack of social contact.
That could be, but lack of community does not equal lack of social contact, if we're going by the traditional definition of "community" here.
I also... well mentioned that there is an idea for secular institutions with the express purpose of community building and guidance. I mentioned Churches as the 'traditional' get together kind of place, as in that it is most common for churches to serve this purpose historically but does not mean it is the sole arbiter of it into the future. I mean, my dad mentions how going to church was a good time to meet with people. After church, it's never uncommon for people to congregate and meet who are little more than acquittance and chat a little to get to know each other. It's a step by step.
If people enjoy getting to know one another after church, that's perfectly fine.
I really don't understand your anti-community stance in the least, to be honest. Secular or Religious, there's nothing wrong with people being more interconnected.
Nowhere did I say that I was anti-community. I stated that church is not the only way to meet people, and that I personally would not want to use church as a way to do so. I have other ways I prefer to do that. Such a preference is not anti-community. I also explained that some people simply don't want or don't get the chance to have a sense of community because of location or work. Living in an apartment in a large city surely doesn't easily allow such a thing, and if you've got a demanding job or a hectic life in general, you're probably not going to take the time to get to know your neighbors and become part of any community. Just because I said it's fading doesn't mean I'm against it.
Most atheists come from hardliner conservative religions, so they tend to turn into hardliner conservative atheists. They don't see that the attitude is the problem, the hardline and conservative aspects, but their religion or lack thereof. This sort of attitude is a poor method of going about life, but like most hardliners they tend to be real dickweeds about things. I have a hardline atheist as my roommate for three months and the guy's overconfidence in his knowledge was staggering.
This seems to be painting all atheists with a broad, negative brush. Hardcore conservative Christians are a minority, and atheists are no different.
-
Most atheists come from hardliner conservative religions, so they tend to turn into hardliner conservative atheists. They don't see that the attitude is the problem, the hardline and conservative aspects, but their religion or lack thereof. This sort of attitude is a poor method of going about life, but like most hardliners they tend to be real dickweeds about things. I have a hardline atheist as my roommate for three months and the guy's overconfidence in his knowledge was staggering.
This seems to be painting all atheists with a broad, negative brush. Hardcore conservative Christians are a minority, and atheists are no different.
Well, yeah. I just was saying it was a common starting point. Most people mature into more reasonable forms of things. Though I've seen a lot of people take a 'strong' position at some point in their lives for whatever reason.
-
@MD: The whole church thing was pretty much forced, but the Elders that did the sermons were, by and large, fairly nice folks. Don't get me wrong, I didn't leave because of the people, they were some of the nicest, most charitable folks I've ever come across. Hell, when we had our car stolen and subsequently destroyed beyond repair, one of the members gave us their 2nd car to use until we could get a new one, and several of the members brought us groceries so we could save up more money.
The thing that led me away from religion wasn't the people, it was the religion itself. More specifically, the Bible. I read it a lot as a kid, and the more I read, and the older I got, the less it made sense to me. I'm not talking simple inconsistencies, but things that Yahweh did that were downright repugnant, reprehensible, and utterly immoral beyond redemption. I didn't want to be associated with a god like that, I didn't want to worship a god that ignored me, ignored my pleas for help. I realized that I couldn't rely on him, that if I wanted something done, I had to do it myself, because no divine intervention was coming. Not because he didn't want to, but because he couldn't, because he's not there, he's not listening, and he can't care, because he doesn't exist.
In short, people didn't kill religion for me, religion did.