Thanks Obama: The greatest minds of a generation weigh in

[The_Queen]

Thanks for taking action when Congress was content to do jack shit regarding gun violence.

Today, president Obama released a set of executive orders involving gun control. The executive orders would (1) strengthen regulations on gun vendors, (2) make background checks pursuant to purchasing a gun more common and more robust, and (3) allocate $500 million to improve mental health services. While the last one irks me, at least some sensible regulation of gun sales occurred today, which is far more than has occurred in the last 20 years.

source

In response, the NRA is up to their same old stupid shit. They're crying that Obama is "engaging in political rhetoric" and not "offering meaningful solutions" (such as arming toddlers). The butthurt organization continues with "The proposed executive actions are ripe for abuse by the Obama Administration, which has made no secret of its contempt for the Second Amendment."

Second source

My opinion: about fucking time. I'm glad that at least someone has the fucking nutsack to stand with 92% of Americans who support moderate and watered down measures like these. While not perfect, I'll take anything at this point that can ameliorate the gun violence that we experience as a country. What are your thoughts?

[guizonde]

damn, ninja'd right down to the thread title. it just popped up on my feed.

finally he's doing something about it. hope it doesn't cost him anything doing that.

[lord gibbon]

You know, on the subject of the mental health system, I'm perfectly fine with it. We DO need more funding for the treatment of mental health issues, and he's pulling a common excuse away from the gun worshipers.

[The_Queen]

You know, on the subject of the mental health system, I'm perfectly fine with it. We DO need more funding for the treatment of mental health issues, and he's pulling a common excuse away from the gun worshipers.

A fair point that I would agree with. Though, since Obama unfurled the mental health executive order alongside gun regulation measures, it contributes to the meme that the mentally ill are more dangerous than general society, which just isn't true and is also used as a way to scapegoat a group that already faces considerable hardships. Any other day, I'd have no problem with the policy.

[guizonde]

i thought i read a throwaway line in the article about the mentally ill, something about them being more dangerous to themselves than others. but seeing the cost of healthcare in the usa, and the poor state of mental health services, it is a good thing despite maybe being interpreted as the shortcut "mentally ill = physically dangerous".

[Canadian Mojo]

You know, on the subject of the mental health system, I'm perfectly fine with it. We DO need more funding for the treatment of mental health issues, and he's pulling a common excuse away from the gun worshipers.

A fair point that I would agree with. Though, since Obama unfurled the mental health executive order alongside gun regulation measures, it contributes to the meme that the mentally ill are more dangerous than general society, which just isn't true and is also used as a way to scapegoat a group that already faces considerable hardships. Any other day, I'd have no problem with the policy.

The silver lining is that is that if it works, good, you've justified gobs more money to help mental health. On the other hand, if it doesn't do anything, it buries the excuse.

[davedan]

I think it is designed as a bit of a Morton's Fork. The gun lobby continually say that the real issue is mental health. However I don't think the US has considerably worst rates of mental health than other countries. Obama touched on that when he said that America doesn't have greater numbers of dangerous people than other countries.  However the gun lobby always say the real issue is mental health. Well by contributing to mental health as well it stops the argument that they aren't addressing the real problem. Already in the NRA release they stated that he has avoided meaningful reform. Had Obama not made provision for mental health funding it would have read 'President Obama has avoided any meaningful reform, such as addressing the inadequate funding of mental health in America'. Now they are left with nothing. They say it wasn't meaningful reform but they can't actually point to any proper reform other than more guns (which if it were correct would mean that the US would have the least violence because you have the most guns).

[Canadian Mojo]

I think it is designed as a bit of a Morton's Fork. The gun lobby continually say that the real issue is mental health. However I don't think the US has considerably worst rates of mental health than other countries. Obama touched on that when he said that America doesn't have greater numbers of dangerous people than other countries.  However the gun lobby always say the real issue is mental health. Well by contributing to mental health as well it stops the argument that they aren't addressing the real problem. Already in the NRA release they stated that he has avoided meaningful reform. Had Obama not made provision for mental health funding it would have read 'President Obama has avoided any meaningful reform, such as addressing the inadequate funding of mental health in America'. Now they are left with nothing. They say it wasn't meaningful reform but they can't actually point to any proper reform other than more guns (which if it were correct would mean that the US would have the least violence because you have the most guns).

Never heard of Morton's fork before. I like it. I've learned a few good ones here over the years. 

[The_Queen]

I think it is designed as a bit of a Morton's Fork. The gun lobby continually say that the real issue is mental health. However I don't think the US has considerably worst rates of mental health than other countries. Obama touched on that when he said that America doesn't have greater numbers of dangerous people than other countries.  However the gun lobby always say the real issue is mental health. Well by contributing to mental health as well it stops the argument that they aren't addressing the real problem. Already in the NRA release they stated that he has avoided meaningful reform. Had Obama not made provision for mental health funding it would have read 'President Obama has avoided any meaningful reform, such as addressing the inadequate funding of mental health in America'. Now they are left with nothing. They say it wasn't meaningful reform but they can't actually point to any proper reform other than more guns (which if it were correct would mean that the US would have the least violence because you have the most guns).

Another good point, and I agree with that logic. It tends to be Obama's M.O. Also, I just learned what a Morton's fork is.

[Svata]

Morton's Fork, one level beyond a Xanatos Gambit.

[davedan]

I believe it comes from the way a Bishop called Morton raised ecclesiastical taxes.

Edit: My memory was wrong  just googled it and it is- how John Morton raised taxes for the royal treasury, If a person lived well they must be able to afford to contribute. If they lived frugally they must have huge savings.

Perhaps not a 100% accurate use of the phrase but close enough, I'd hate for there to be captious arguments that I should have elided its use.

[ironbite]

Damn.  Now that's the politician that slaughtered his way to the White House from the streets of Chicago.

Ironbite-bravo.

[rookie]

I'm a little upset by the mental health part. 500 million is a paltry sum. It well and truly is. A drop in the bucket.

[pyro]

This isn't quite my favorite political example of a Morton's Fork. That title is still held by that British judge throwing out a lawsuit from Apple to Samsung.

"The Galaxy Tab can't possibly be mistaken for the iPad. The design isn't nearly as cool."

[Askold]

Someone commented that since NRA and the rest of the pro-gun lobby keep claiming that the gun show loophole does not exist shouldn't they support this decision for free political political points as it has no effect? Or is there such a loophole and these people are dedicated at keeping it open? Or will they merely oppose everything Obama does?


...Anyway, I still think that as long as the second amendment exists in this form it will prevent sensible gun laws in USA.