Fallon Fox, Transgender MMA fighter, Could Lose License

[m52nickerson]

Fallon Fox a transgender women and MMA fighter in the women's 145lb division may lose her Florida athletic license because she did not reveal she was transgender.

http://espn.go.com/mma/story/_/id/9023730/transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-faces-review-mma-license

Fox is 37 and completed full transition to female 6 years ago.  She is 2-0 as a professional fighter.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mma/news/20130307/fallon-fox-profile/

She should be allowed to fight without a doubt.  I also think the Florida Athletic Commission is right to be reviewing her license because she did not reveal she was transgendered as required.  It is there duty to ensure, as much as possible, the safety of all fighters involved.

Thoughts?

[davedan]

It is a difficult call. Because she may have the same hormonal balance that other female fighters have. Presumably there is some range of testosterone (other androgyns etc) that they have to fall within to fight. But that's not the end of it. Men (on average) have greater bone density than women. That results in both being able to deliver and take more punishment. As it sounds like she was quite mature when she transitioned (31 I think) she would have the benefit of that extra bone density. All of which could give her an unfair advantage.

On the otherside of the coin would it be fairer to put her in with the men. I wouldn't think so given she would have been taking hormones (presumably has had sex re-assignment surgery etc).

Certainly when someone trains that hard they shouldnt be kept out of the sport because of this.

On balance I would say that subject to being within the same hormonal range as other fighters she should be ok. I do agree that she should have to disclose to the fight commissions etc.

[kefkaownsall]

While I see the point about fairness and all TBH seeing as coming out especially in Florida can be dangerous etc I say they are not being understanding

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it probably has less to do with being transgender and more to do with being dishonest about it.

[ThunderWulf]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it probably has less to do with being transgender and more to do with being dishonest about it.

Hopefully this.  I'd like to think it's more them being upset at the hiding of the truth rather than the trans part.

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it probably has less to do with being transgender and more to do with being dishonest about it.

Hopefully this.  I'd like to think it's more them being upset at the hiding of the truth rather than the trans part.

You know that a lot of agreements have you sign saying you're not intentionally lying or omitting anything, right? 

[Sylvana]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it probably has less to do with being transgender and more to do with being dishonest about it.

Hopefully this.  I'd like to think it's more them being upset at the hiding of the truth rather than the trans part.

You know that a lot of agreements have you sign saying you're not intentionally lying or omitting anything, right? 

Unless the specifically asked if she was a woman since birth, claiming she was a woman on her agreement is not lying, provided all of her legal documentation has been processed. Given she fully transitioned 6 years ago she surely would have.

I very much doubt this is about lying, this is about the possible unfair advantage a trans-person may have, with a side of general trans-discrimination.
That said, as a trans person one must realize that they will be excluded from ever being able to compete professionally. It is just too big a can of worms in my opinion because things like this will always come up.

Should a trans-person be allowed to compete? I am honestly conflicted on this. I am a naive belief in remaining true to the spirit of the sport. Unfortunately far too often people find ways to get around limitations. You get any number of people with hormonal abnormalities competing in sport that gives them a huge advantage over the other participants and that does not even look at how many people cheat with substance abuse. Given that there are already people that push gender boundaries in sport, I am inclined to say that yes they should be allowed to participate. Unfortunately I can see that end up giving trans-people a really bad name because anyone who looses to a trans-person will claim that the trans-person had an unfair advantage and it will taint the victory.

[Distind]

Makes for a weird case in gender segregated leagues, but honestly if there are people willing to fight her fully aware of this, I see no reason for a ban. Maybe a review of the two wins, and it definitely doesn't help that some people will see it as a guy beating up on women, but now that it's out? Let'm fight, I've had my ass kicked by women, why should I be the only one?

If anything it may be a good case for ditching gender segregation, it's not like the fights aren't hand picked anyway.

[m52nickerson]

Looking at Foxes fight videos really does not help.  She won both of her fight by TKO pretty easily.  To someone that does not watch MMA it will look very much as if she has a definite advantage.

On the other hand her opponents have a combined record of 0-5 and I have seen much more lopsided fights even at the higher levels of the sport.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it probably has less to do with being transgender and more to do with being dishonest about it.

I think the transgender part does have a good part in this.  In Fox's case she transitioned years ago and was not an overly muscular before hand.  So any advantage she would have over other women in her weight class is probably less than a naturally strong, athletic women.

Now if Fox had been a more muscular man before transitioning to a women and the time from that change less I thing she would retain much more of an advantage.  This would be an issue.

[RinellaWasHere]

Yeah, I've watched one of her fights (the one against Helsper), and she does win well. I'm not sure she's ready for the UFC big leagues, but that's just because I question her experience. Two wins in pro fights and one in amateur against opponents with a serious losing streak doesn't exactly tell us much about her actual talent.

But I will say that her being trans shouldn't be a barrier in any way.

[chitoryu12]

The question should really be if she had legally been considered a woman when she signed the contract. If she's still legally considered a man but signs up as a woman, then she's lying on part of her form. Once that question has been answered, a decision can be made much more easily.

[m52nickerson]

The question should really be if she had legally been considered a woman when she signed the contract. If she's still legally considered a man but signs up as a woman, then she's lying on part of her form. Once that question has been answered, a decision can be made much more easily.

It's not that simple because fighters have to reveal any on going treatments and the reason for them.  Male MMA fighter who are on testosterone replacement therapy have to get exemptions for hormone injections.  She very well may have to get some type of approval as well from her estrogen injections.

[mellenORL]

She's been legally, hormonally and genitalically (sp?) female long enough this should not be an issue. Florida as a whole is not one of the really bad Southern states when it comes to LGBT rights, where the general populace is concerned, as long as ya ain't up in the north of the state, where the rednecks live. So I think she just answered the questions in all honesty, in fact, and certainly with complete sincerity from her point of view - no intention to deceive, no fear of crazy bigotry or w/e.

She has lost all of the specific male hormonal advantages in re musculature and bone density by now. If you know any male to female trans people in the earlier phases of hormonal treatment, you will no doubt be aware that it affects stamina and strength negatively. It was about the only thing one of my trans friends had trouble dealing with at first. It's one thing to know ahead of time what to expect, it's another to actually experience the change. Kinda freaked her out at first.

[chitoryu12]

If she was legally a female when she signed up and was honest in all forms, then there should be no issue. If she lied about even one thing (like denying being on hormone treatments), then she did commit a breach of contract and would have it promptly terminated. I don't think there should be any accusations of bigotry until her medical history and contract can be looked at more closely.

[Captain Jack Harkness]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it probably has less to do with being transgender and more to do with being dishonest about it.

Hopefully this.  I'd like to think it's more them being upset at the hiding of the truth rather than the trans part.

You know that a lot of agreements have you sign saying you're not intentionally lying or omitting anything, right? 

Unless the specifically asked if she was a woman since birth, claiming she was a woman on her agreement is not lying, provided all of her legal documentation has been processed. Given she fully transitioned 6 years ago she surely would have.

I very much doubt this is about lying, this is about the possible unfair advantage a trans-person may have, with a side of general trans-discrimination.
That said, as a trans person one must realize that they will be excluded from ever being able to compete professionally. It is just too big a can of worms in my opinion because things like this will always come up.

Should a trans-person be allowed to compete? I am honestly conflicted on this. I am a naive belief in remaining true to the spirit of the sport. Unfortunately far too often people find ways to get around limitations. You get any number of people with hormonal abnormalities competing in sport that gives them a huge advantage over the other participants and that does not even look at how many people cheat with substance abuse. Given that there are already people that push gender boundaries in sport, I am inclined to say that yes they should be allowed to participate. Unfortunately I can see that end up giving trans-people a really bad name because anyone who looses to a trans-person will claim that the trans-person had an unfair advantage and it will taint the victory.

Make a special "Trans" league?  I dunno.  That comes with a label, thought. >.<

================================

So I have been reading, actually.  Is this a bigger issue of the physical effects a person undergoes to actually change their gender physically?  You lave to excuse me, but I'm really ignorant on the process to actually change genders.  Hell, all the trans jargon confuses the hell out of me.  Then again, studying it is a nightmare.  I'd almost say it's worse than a bug in some .pm files I'm trying to fix at work.  Almost.  God, why does the module have to be broken?  I think I know what's wrong, but what I know isn't going to be enough to solve it.

Sorry for the tangent.  Yeah, are there hormone issues or something with this whole thing?