Author Topic: Worst of Social Justice  (Read 460441 times)

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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2013, 04:52:27 pm »
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1. Someone that asks you out on a date and then rapes you during it counts as rape by someone who knew the victim, I would guess.

The statistics I got from RAINN simply cite it as "2/3 of victims knew the rapist". They have no qualifiers except for "38% were a friend or acquaintance." At the same time, we can't determine how many of that roughly 66% were people known from a single date, as opposed to neighbors, coworkers, and the like who the victim wasn't acquainted with.

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2. What's what she should be doing, treating every stranger as a harmless kitten until they become acquaintances, at which point he becomes a rapist? I'd guess that the reason one is more likely to be raped by an acquaintance is a matter of opportunity. Being already in the same room in private, that sort of thing. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to be wary of giving strangers those opportunities until you know a bit more about them, and can make a slightly more informed judgement.

Strawman argument. There are levels between "Every stranger is harmless until they're statistically the more likely group to rape me" and "Every strange man is a potential rapist and I will treat you as a threat until you prove otherwise." Being wary of strangers is not the same as going into alert mode every time you're around one.

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3. Even if the whole thing was fully unjustified (which I don't think it is), if someone feels uncomfortable around strange men then it still makes sense to make some allowances. If someone is afraid of flying because every time they get on a plane they vividly imagine a crash, then you can't just quote air crash statistics at them and then be surprised they still don't want to get on a plane. Even if the risk is not there, fear makes the experience unpleasant and they have every right to avoid it, or to try to act in such a way as to feel safer.

"Treat all men as threats until otherwise proven" isn't a very sensible allowance, and is likely a sign that you're in need of counseling. There's a huge difference between taking sensible precautions and placing an entire, mostly benign group in your "Be terrified of" box because of the actions of a minority.

Don't we always mention here not to paint an entire, diverse group with a single brush and irrationally fear them because of the actions of a few?
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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2013, 05:01:04 pm »
"Treat all men as threats until otherwise proven" isn't a very sensible allowance, and is likely a sign that you're in need of counseling. There's a huge difference between taking sensible precautions and placing an entire, mostly benign group in your "Be terrified of" box because of the actions of a minority.
From the last time this was discussed I was rather amazed at the number of people who apparently live their lives in a state of utter terror over what other people might do to them. Regardless of apparent intent.

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2013, 05:22:59 pm »
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2. What's what she should be doing, treating every stranger as a harmless kitten until they become acquaintances, at which point he becomes a rapist? I'd guess that the reason one is more likely to be raped by an acquaintance is a matter of opportunity. Being already in the same room in private, that sort of thing. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to be wary of giving strangers those opportunities until you know a bit more about them, and can make a slightly more informed judgement.

Strawman argument. There are levels between "Every stranger is harmless until they're statistically the more likely group to rape me" and "Every strange man is a potential rapist and I will treat you as a threat until you prove otherwise." Being wary of strangers is not the same as going into alert mode every time you're around one.
There certainly are plenty of levels in between, my point is that "Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim" does not imply "You are safer around strangers than around acquaintances", which is what I thought you were trying to say.
Also, what would you describe as the difference between being wary and alert mode? Also, why do you think that the writer is advocating the latter and not the former?

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3. Even if the whole thing was fully unjustified (which I don't think it is), if someone feels uncomfortable around strange men then it still makes sense to make some allowances. If someone is afraid of flying because every time they get on a plane they vividly imagine a crash, then you can't just quote air crash statistics at them and then be surprised they still don't want to get on a plane. Even if the risk is not there, fear makes the experience unpleasant and they have every right to avoid it, or to try to act in such a way as to feel safer.

"Treat all men as threats until otherwise proven" isn't a very sensible allowance, and is likely a sign that you're in need of counseling. There's a huge difference between taking sensible precautions and placing an entire, mostly benign group in your "Be terrified of" box because of the actions of a minority.
But that's not what she's doing.  She asks men to be aware of context and social cues, not saying that she refuses to interact with men under any circumstances.

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Don't we always mention here not to paint an entire, diverse group with a single brush and irrationally fear them because of the actions of a few?
But, again, that's not what she's doing. The very first point brought up in the article is that most men are good people. She explains why she is careful, and why she is more worried under some circumstances than others. If she was saying that women should treat all men as rapists regardless of anything else, then I would be entirely in agreement with you. As far as I can tell, she's saying that women are have to be aware of the possibility of rape, more so than men, and that men should realise how that affects their interactions with strange women.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2013, 06:25:29 pm »
You are also statistically less likely to be targeted by an actual criminal if you do engage them with neutral to friendly eye contact, a nod, a hello...or even a "please, may I sit here"?

As to assuming all men are a potential threat for your own safety consciousness routine? Maybe not as necessary as you think.

A favorite incident in my life started out pretty damned bad, but...I got on a packed-solid train after work late one night (an ATL Braves game just let out two stations before mine). I stood for a bit, but as a seat became available right next to me, I bent to sit in it, and got sort of shoved off from doing so by a young white male, who refused to acknowledge my existence. A young black male who witnessed this got up, offered his seat to me, and walked over to stand right in front of asshat, staring him down, while wearing a big grin. Asshat did not look up, but got redder and redder and nervous acting, then jumped up quickly to get off at the next stop (probably not his intended one).

There is safety in numbers. At least still here in the States and other first world countries. I say that qualifier, because yeah, India and other locales of horrific savage incidents in the news lately. Kinda don't see that happening here anytime soon, though.

As to women needing to always consider where and when to walk to be reasonably safe? Of course! That is common sense. And you know that men do the exact same thinking, unless they are clueless egotists. A gun or knife, or just the element of surprise, will trump any man's physical strength, and guys know that. They might take a risk now and then, but men are crime victims as often, or more often, than women, and a long walk down a dark alley in a sketchy neighborhood is nerve wrecking for a man, too.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2013, 07:23:43 pm »
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There certainly are plenty of levels in between, my point is that "Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim" does not imply "You are safer around strangers than around acquaintances", which is what I thought you were trying to say.

Definitely not. My point is that if you're picking a specific fear of a specific crime and applying it to a specific group of people, you probably shouldn't take one that's statistically the less likely group.

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Also, what would you describe as the difference between being wary and alert mode? Also, why do you think that the writer is advocating the latter and not the former?

"Wary" does not come with the implication that she will treat every unknown man as a potential rapist until they prove otherwise. She does provide some specific examples of genuinely threatening behavior, but those don't mesh well with her previous assertion that she approaches all strange men as Schrodinger's Rapist.

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But that's not what she's doing.  She asks men to be aware of context and social cues, not saying that she refuses to interact with men under any circumstances.

That is not even close to what I said. Don't imply otherwise. What I said was that she treats all men as threats, regardless of who they are, until they personally prove to her that they're not threatening and she evaluates every man she sees as a potential rapist. If you're going through your life looking at every member of a particular group and dissecting how threatening each of them is, you may need to re-evaluate your fears.

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But, again, that's not what she's doing. The very first point brought up in the article is that most men are good people. She explains why she is careful, and why she is more worried under some circumstances than others. If she was saying that women should treat all men as rapists regardless of anything else, then I would be entirely in agreement with you. As far as I can tell, she's saying that women are have to be aware of the possibility of rape, more so than men, and that men should realise how that affects their interactions with strange women.

"Be aware of the possibility of rape" is not the same as "I will treat you as a potential rapist if I don't know you." That's not an exaggeration, either. She outright states that if she doesn't know you, she is considering the possibility that you may rape her. If she was saying that she's always considering the possibility of a black guy robbing her until they prove otherwise, people would be calling foul.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2013, 07:48:49 pm »
I think being automatically wary of all men is sort of a preemptive reaction to the victim-blaming she may receive if a man does, in fact, turn out to be a rapist. Sort of like, "But he was so creepy to you! Why didn't you notice sooner?" As if it's her responsibility to magically know which men are good and which men are bad. Neither side of this is particularly rational from an objective perspective but it's important to realize why she might feel that way.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2013, 08:01:39 pm »
I think being automatically wary of all men is sort of a preemptive reaction to the victim-blaming she may receive if a man does, in fact, turn out to be a rapist. Sort of like, "But he was so creepy to you! Why didn't you notice sooner?" As if it's her responsibility to magically know which men are good and which men are bad. Neither side of this is particularly rational from an objective perspective but it's important to realize why she might feel that way.

I realize why she acts this way. Understanding someone's point of view doesn't necessarily make their behavior correct or rational, however. In fact, it's highly likely that automatically engaging in defensive behavior (which includes various social cues and body language, consciously or otherwise) will be seen as intimidating or possibly antagonistic depending on what she does.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2013, 10:41:43 pm »
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There certainly are plenty of levels in between, my point is that "Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim" does not imply "You are safer around strangers than around acquaintances", which is what I thought you were trying to say.

Definitely not. My point is that if you're picking a specific fear of a specific crime and applying it to a specific group of people, you probably shouldn't take one that's statistically the less likely group.
Sorry for misunderstanding, then.

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Also, what would you describe as the difference between being wary and alert mode? Also, why do you think that the writer is advocating the latter and not the former?

"Wary" does not come with the implication that she will treat every unknown man as a potential rapist until they prove otherwise. She does provide some specific examples of genuinely threatening behavior, but those don't mesh well with her previous assertion that she approaches all strange men as Schrodinger's Rapist.

You keep using the phrasing "treat men like potential rapists". What do you think this entails, exactly?

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If you're going through your life looking at every member of a particular group and dissecting how threatening each of them is, you may need to re-evaluate your fears.

Depends on how you go about it, really. Devoting a significant amount of your conscious thought to it is over-reaction, and will probably kill you with stress. Subconsciously analysing a stranger you pass by on the street, reacting if there's a hint in their manner that they might do something, is a basic necessity.

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"Be aware of the possibility of rape" is not the same as "I will treat you as a potential rapist if I don't know you." That's not an exaggeration, either. She outright states that if she doesn't know you, she is considering the possibility that you may rape her.

I'm confused here. How is being aware of the possibility of rape not the same thing as considering the possibility of rape?

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If she was saying that she's always considering the possibility of a black guy robbing her until they prove otherwise, people would be calling foul.

Only if she didn't extend the same care to guys of other races. Considering the possibility that people in general might rob you is a good way to diminish the chances of being robbed.

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Offline Thejebusfire

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2013, 11:16:42 pm »


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Offline davedan

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2013, 11:38:03 pm »
In relation to the Schrodinger's Rapist thing:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4LkrQCyIz8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4LkrQCyIz8</a>

Offline rookie

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2013, 10:47:39 am »
Recently some coworkers and I had this same discussion. During the course, a lady I work with brought up tthis analogy. Shesaid it's comparable to how a guy might feel walking around with $3000 in twenties in their wallet. She came up with that number because that many bills in a wallet would probably be notices. But she said the procautions you'd take are similar. I thought that was a decent analogy worthy of sharing.
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Offline Thejebusfire

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2013, 02:10:47 am »
Meanwhile in radfem land:
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Q:So it's a bad thing to like down right rough sex?

A:you’re not a shitty person for it, but yeah asserting dominance over a woman via sex is rape.

Because a woman enjoying rough sex is totally akin to rape.

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2013, 02:54:29 am »
Meanwhile in radfem land:
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Q:So it's a bad thing to like down right rough sex?

A:you’re not a shitty person for it, but yeah asserting dominance over a woman via sex is rape.

Because a woman enjoying rough sex is totally akin to rape.

The best part is that this moron is essentially saying that by their logic, someone can be a rapist and still be a good person overall. That's a rather interesting implication, I have to say.

Offline Lithp

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2013, 03:30:50 am »
Meanwhile in radfem land:
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Q:So it's a bad thing to like down right rough sex?

A:you’re not a shitty person for it, but yeah asserting dominance over a woman via sex is rape.

Because a woman enjoying rough sex is totally akin to rape.

The best part is that this moron is essentially saying that by their logic, someone can be a rapist and still be a good person overall. That's a rather interesting implication, I have to say.

Oh my God, the other day, I was taking one of my tours through Cathy Brennan's mystical land of batshittery, & I found myself on a site detailing how penis-in-vaginal sex is a heinous crime. I wish I could find it again, but choice excerpts were, paraphrased to the best of my recollection:

"It can literally kill you, from complications from pregnancy & STDs."
"These complications don't exist for men. What if men could literally die from sex? Then would we care?"
"What kind of person would want to do this to a woman? What kind of woman would want to do this?"
"All penetrative sex is rape."

Offline Iosa the Invincible

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Re: Worst of Social Justice
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2013, 04:00:42 am »
It's a good thing sexually transmitted HIV/AIDS isn't a thing; people would die from that.