Author Topic: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!  (Read 5627 times)

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Offline Barbarella

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IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« on: January 23, 2015, 12:01:54 am »
Really! It's always between 7-5 minutes closer to midnight! Who are these so-called science guys trying to prove? Scaremongering! That's all it is! It means nothing!

Logically, as I see the world, it's more like 40 minutes to midnight! What would 11:05 on that clock look like? These guys have no point of reference! I don't deny that the political situation all over is tense but DAMN! That stupid fake clock with it's "OOH WERE SOOO CLOSE TO DYYYYING! Timeline!".

A bunch of damned fear-mongering! It's best to IGNORE all super-dire predictions. It actually hampers morale and the ability to better the world. I don't need bullshit telling me it's futile!

"Scare Them Straight" doesn't work! Positive encouragement does!

Sorry 'bout the rant guys, I'm perfectly fine. I just had to get something off my chest.

I was responding to this thing........
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/01/22/the-doomsday-clock-is-ticking-again-it-is-now-three-minutes-to-midnight-a-k-a-the-end-of-humanity/

Also, if this is about Global Warming, while I'm sure that it'll screw up things if left unabated, I'm sure all 7 Billion people are NOT going to croak. Many might die, but many can move to less dry places and adapt. Humans can adapt to anything.

I don't believe in human hubris but I do feel that humanity can adapt. Perhaps the hotter weather & meteorological weirdness could finally wake folks up and we'll finally "Go Green".

You can point out the ills of the world without going "DOOM DOOM DOOM" and getting all "Crazy Harold" about the Earth like it was one giant Jason-infested summer camp!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 12:15:48 am by Barbarella »

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 12:11:17 am »
Really! It's always between 7-5 minutes closer to midnight! Who are these so-called science guys trying to prove? Scaremongering! That's all it is! It means nothing!

Logically, as I see the world, it's more like 40 minutes to midnight! What would 11:05 on that clock look like? These guys have no point of reference! I don't deny that the political situation all over is tense but DAMN! That stupid fake clock with it's "OOH WERE SOOO CLOSE TO DYYYYING! Timeline!".

A bunch of damned fear-mongering! It's best to IGNORE all super-dire predictions. It actually hampers morale and the ability to better the world. I don't need bullshit telling me it's futile!

"Scare Them Straight" doesn't work! Positive encouragement does!

Would you mind giving us a little context?

Offline Barbarella

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 12:17:06 am »
Really! It's always between 7-5 minutes closer to midnight! Who are these so-called science guys trying to prove? Scaremongering! That's all it is! It means nothing!

Logically, as I see the world, it's more like 40 minutes to midnight! What would 11:05 on that clock look like? These guys have no point of reference! I don't deny that the political situation all over is tense but DAMN! That stupid fake clock with it's "OOH WERE SOOO CLOSE TO DYYYYING! Timeline!".

A bunch of damned fear-mongering! It's best to IGNORE all super-dire predictions. It actually hampers morale and the ability to better the world. I don't need bullshit telling me it's futile!

"Scare Them Straight" doesn't work! Positive encouragement does!

Would you mind giving us a little context?

I added more to my previous post.

Here's an article on that clock....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

Offline Askold

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2015, 02:11:33 am »
The Doomsday clock has been pretty accurate. We have been close to nuclear annihilation several times just because we are unable to get along well and the great powers thought they needed to have a dick waving contest with nuclear weapons.

And saying "everything is fine, everything will turn out fine, you guys are doing great" would not have helped much during the Cuban missile crisis for example.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 02:48:54 pm »
Logically, as I see the world, it's more like 40 minutes to midnight!

Why, though?

My biggest problem with the Doomsday clock is that we have no way to measure "closeness to doomsday" in any meaningful sense, so we have no check against it. The numbers add a pretence of quantification, but without a way to map "minutes to midnight" to actual states of the world, you might as well call it a gut feeling. It's equally imprecise, but its honest about being unquantifiable.

Given that, why "11:20" over any other number? Why not 6 o'clock? Why not noon?

Quote
It's best to IGNORE all super-dire predictions. It actually hampers morale and the ability to better the world. I don't need bullshit telling me it's futile!

Here I disagree. Super-dire predictions should be taken seriously. Species go extinct all the ungoddamned time, humans are clever but we are not magically protected from that risk. Everything we know suggests we can kill ourselves off, or be killed by external events, or lose a big chunck of the population, and these are bad things we need to take seriously in order to protect ourselves against them. Morale is important, obviously; if you personally can't work properly by thinking too much about doom, then don't think too much about doom. But some people can, and are even motivated by the idea that if we don't do something we might all die.

Sometimes people need positive thinking. Sometimes they need a kick in the ass to get them moving.



The Doomsday clock has been pretty accurate. We have been close to nuclear annihilation several times just because we are unable to get along well and the great powers thought they needed to have a dick waving contest with nuclear weapons.

How would we know, though? Nuclear annihilation hasn't actually happened, so there's no empirical check on the Doomsday clock. It's difficult to define (let alone measure) "closeness to annihilation" when we cannot actually observe annihilation*.

We can look at times the clock moved forward/ backwards and say "yes, this looks like a thing that would move us closer/further away from extinction", but that's not accuracy. The doomsday clock is not a careful algorithm analysing global events, it's an intuitive guess (by very smart people, maybe, but still an intuitive guess). Comparing that to our intuitive sense of what will cause extinction is not a useful confirmation, because you're just comparing the intuition of one group of people vs that of another group of people.

Which means we have no real tests of the Doomsday clock (and no idea how one would even go about testing it), we're just taking the judgement of experts at face value. Tetlock's work suggests this is not very reliable.

Quote
And saying "everything is fine, everything will turn out fine, you guys are doing great" would not have helped much during the Cuban missile crisis for example.

Probably not. But is there any reason to think that presenting the information in symbolic clock form actually makes a difference? Surely people can say "hey, conflict between nuclear powers that can escalate into nuclear war, that sounds dangerous" without looking at a clock.


*There are also anthropic arguments that suggest we should not expect to observe a universe where we are "close" to annihilation in some sense, but this is probably not the same meaning of "close" that the Doomsday clock is meant to reflect.
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Offline dpareja

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 02:59:22 pm »
The Doomsday Clock is kind of a science version of the Rapture Index.

I take them about equally seriously.
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Offline Old Viking

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2015, 04:11:05 pm »
I would greet human extinction with a welcoming but sardonic smile.  It would be best for the planet. 
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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2015, 02:09:40 am »
I still have hope we'll stop being a bunch of fuckwits.  Not much, but some hope.

That said, I do like entertaining 'what if?' scenarios of "what if humanity never existed?"
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Offline Barbarella

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2015, 10:42:32 am »
Logically, as I see the world, it's more like 40 minutes to midnight!

Why, though?

My biggest problem with the Doomsday clock is that we have no way to measure "closeness to doomsday" in any meaningful sense, so we have no check against it. The numbers add a pretence of quantification, but without a way to map "minutes to midnight" to actual states of the world, you might as well call it a gut feeling. It's equally imprecise, but its honest about being unquantifiable.

Given that, why "11:20" over any other number? Why not 6 o'clock? Why not noon?

Quote
It's best to IGNORE all super-dire predictions. It actually hampers morale and the ability to better the world. I don't need bullshit telling me it's futile!

Here I disagree. Super-dire predictions should be taken seriously. Species go extinct all the ungoddamned time, humans are clever but we are not magically protected from that risk. Everything we know suggests we can kill ourselves off, or be killed by external events, or lose a big chunck of the population, and these are bad things we need to take seriously in order to protect ourselves against them. Morale is important, obviously; if you personally can't work properly by thinking too much about doom, then don't think too much about doom. But some people can, and are even motivated by the idea that if we don't do something we might all die.

Sometimes people need positive thinking. Sometimes they need a kick in the ass to get them moving.



The Doomsday clock has been pretty accurate. We have been close to nuclear annihilation several times just because we are unable to get along well and the great powers thought they needed to have a dick waving contest with nuclear weapons.

How would we know, though? Nuclear annihilation hasn't actually happened, so there's no empirical check on the Doomsday clock. It's difficult to define (let alone measure) "closeness to annihilation" when we cannot actually observe annihilation*.

We can look at times the clock moved forward/ backwards and say "yes, this looks like a thing that would move us closer/further away from extinction", but that's not accuracy. The doomsday clock is not a careful algorithm analysing global events, it's an intuitive guess (by very smart people, maybe, but still an intuitive guess). Comparing that to our intuitive sense of what will cause extinction is not a useful confirmation, because you're just comparing the intuition of one group of people vs that of another group of people.

Which means we have no real tests of the Doomsday clock (and no idea how one would even go about testing it), we're just taking the judgement of experts at face value. Tetlock's work suggests this is not very reliable.

Quote
And saying "everything is fine, everything will turn out fine, you guys are doing great" would not have helped much during the Cuban missile crisis for example.

Probably not. But is there any reason to think that presenting the information in symbolic clock form actually makes a difference? Surely people can say "hey, conflict between nuclear powers that can escalate into nuclear war, that sounds dangerous" without looking at a clock.


*There are also anthropic arguments that suggest we should not expect to observe a universe where we are "close" to annihilation in some sense, but this is probably not the same meaning of "close" that the Doomsday clock is meant to reflect.


After much thinking, I'm with you on all counts. I know I've given the impression that I'm a huge Pollyanna but believe me, I understand that our world's a mess and we really need to get our house in order but FAST! I just thought the whole "Doomsday Clock" thing was ridiculous. I mean, FIVE MINUTES? Why five minutes? Where's the point of reference? Why a clock? Maybe something akin to that "Terror Alert" system would make more sense rather than a clock. A clock is too exact. It's ridiculous.

Also, no amount of "WE'RE DOOMED!" is going to scare the big rich guys stifling social progress to snap to their senses. They'll only do good if they see something that'll benefit them in it.

The Fat Cats & Robber Barons want the ol' bucks? How about get them together in a room, have a summit and persuade them to switch to the "Green Energy" biz! Same with the Military-Industrial Complex guys....get into auto production or something!

And find someone with a real gift of gab who can persuade anybody into anything!

I admit that my words in my first post were strong. I wasn't thinking correctly but was sick of the whole "Fearmongering" jazz....that's how societies get manipulated by idiots and scapegoat and stuff. Even if the "Doomsday Clock" guys are intelligent good people telling the world to "WAAAAKKE! UUUUP!", it's still weird. I mean....a "CLOCK"?

The main reason I felt miffed was that, in the big scheme of things (as far as human history is concerned), we're in one of the best times. Centuries ago, war was non-stop everywhere. Every five minutes there was a war. Wars had MASSIVE casualty numbers. Whole nations could be wiped out! The very concept of widespread charities & human rights was non-existent. Hygiene & scientific knowledge were nil. Even as recently as Victorian & Edwardian eras, death was a regular daily thing for EVERYBODY, even the well-to-do. Infant/Child mortality was high!

Despite the insanity going on with Daesh, Boko Haram & whatnot, humanity is actually in it's LEAST violent era in history! Also, the violent crime rate my own country is at an all-time low and a number of countries are peaceful, prosperous & very progressive.

Who would've thought that the lands of the Vikings, or the Norse in general, a very warrior-centric culture, which even for a time had been awash in poverty in the previous couple hundred years....have become prosperous, safe, happy, total peacenik liberal societies?


So, I must repeat that I'm not being "Ms. Rose-Colored Glasses", I know things are dire but I just think using a CLOCK to illustrate things...and setting said clock to just-before-midnight...is dumb!

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2015, 07:37:00 pm »
The Doomsday clock has been pretty accurate. We have been close to nuclear annihilation several times just because we are unable to get along well and the great powers thought they needed to have a dick waving contest with nuclear weapons.

Really though? If we went back and did history 100,000 times, how many times do you reckon everyone would have been blown up? Is it really 97%?
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Offline Askold

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2015, 12:33:48 am »
The Doomsday clock has been pretty accurate. We have been close to nuclear annihilation several times just because we are unable to get along well and the great powers thought they needed to have a dick waving contest with nuclear weapons.

Really though? If we went back and did history 100,000 times, how many times do you reckon everyone would have been blown up? Is it really 97%?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident

We had things like that happen. There was also the time when bombers with nukes were taking off from USA to bomb Soviet Union because Pentagon had been destroyed and they were only stopped when it was revealed that this particular incident was also caused by a malfunction. And on that time if they had been following protocol they should not have stopped for anything.

So, the only reason we are still alive is that on several occasions people have violated their orders to start the WW3.
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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2015, 02:08:14 pm »
That's not the same thing though. It could be that the protocols are inherently weak and under most versions of history the same things would have happened, i.e. not being blown up.

But I would consider that an acceptable interpretation of "close to annihilation" anyway. "We would have been killed if someone had not disobeyed a particular order" seems a meaningful interpretation of "close", regardless of the probability of that order being disobeyed.

For anthropic reasons, we should not expect to live in a universe where we are probabilistically close to annihilation on repeated occasions. I think, anyway, anthropic reasoning makes my brain hurt (if there are universes where we become extinct, and universes where we don't, we should observe a lot more of the latter, because in the former we stop existing).
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Offline Ironchew

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2015, 03:35:56 pm »
That's not the same thing though. It could be that the protocols are inherently weak and under most versions of history the same things would have happened, i.e. not being blown up.

But I would consider that an acceptable interpretation of "close to annihilation" anyway. "We would have been killed if someone had not disobeyed a particular order" seems a meaningful interpretation of "close", regardless of the probability of that order being disobeyed.

For anthropic reasons, we should not expect to live in a universe where we are probabilistically close to annihilation on repeated occasions. I think, anyway, anthropic reasoning makes my brain hurt (if there are universes where we become extinct, and universes where we don't, we should observe a lot more of the latter, because in the former we stop existing).

Barring evidence of extraterrestrial civilizations or time travel into the past, we're essentially running one trial when we're talking about "the whole world". It's a similar problem with a lot of arguments for the existence of God that start throwing probabilities around (usually extremely low) for the existence of the universe; the honest answer is that we don't have enough trials to assert a prior probability. Trying to apply Bayesian reasoning to essentially unknown probabilities doesn't really get us anywhere.

We do have a little more inductive reasoning about individual nations. I would hazard a guess that dismantling nuclear weapons worldwide (yes, that includes the United States) is a less dangerous strategy than what essentially amounts to a huge game of chicken with mutually-assured destruction. Any actions that favor deproliferation over brinksmanship would, in that sense, decrease the probability that an individual nation tries a nuclear first strike.

Really! It's always between 7-5 minutes closer to midnight! Who are these so-called science guys trying to prove? Scaremongering! That's all it is! It means nothing!

I am sympathetic to the idea behind the Doomsday Clock because a worldwide nuclear exchange would make things much, much worse for human civilization -- all because of petty nationalism. I don't just stick my head in the sand and pretend it could never happen.

Also, if this is about Global Warming, while I'm sure that it'll screw up things if left unabated, I'm sure all 7 Billion people are NOT going to croak. Many might die, but many can move to less dry places and adapt. Humans can adapt to anything.

Humans would likely not go extinct, but it likely wouldn't be anything less than total disruption of civilization with mass starvation. We have no guarantee that we'd have the same amount of arable land in different latitudes after a severe warming event, or that the oceans would sustain the same biomass.

I don't believe in human hubris but I do feel that humanity can adapt. Perhaps the hotter weather & meteorological weirdness could finally wake folks up and we'll finally "Go Green".

It might be too late to reverse those changes by the time most people notice. That's the whole point of dealing with the problem right now.
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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2015, 05:48:25 pm »
That's not the same thing though. It could be that the protocols are inherently weak and under most versions of history the same things would have happened, i.e. not being blown up.

But I would consider that an acceptable interpretation of "close to annihilation" anyway. "We would have been killed if someone had not disobeyed a particular order" seems a meaningful interpretation of "close", regardless of the probability of that order being disobeyed.

For anthropic reasons, we should not expect to live in a universe where we are probabilistically close to annihilation on repeated occasions. I think, anyway, anthropic reasoning makes my brain hurt (if there are universes where we become extinct, and universes where we don't, we should observe a lot more of the latter, because in the former we stop existing).

Barring evidence of extraterrestrial civilizations or time travel into the past, we're essentially running one trial when we're talking about "the whole world". It's a similar problem with a lot of arguments for the existence of God that start throwing probabilities around (usually extremely low) for the existence of the universe; the honest answer is that we don't have enough trials to assert a prior probability. Trying to apply Bayesian reasoning to essentially unknown probabilities doesn't really get us anywhere.

You don't need trials to establish a prior probability; the prior probability is the one you have before updating on the evidence.

Obviously we don't have trial runs of the universe, which is why I'm using anthropic reasoning rather than frequentism. I freely admit anthropic reasoning confuses me and I could be doing it completely wrong, so I don't put much weight on it. If you want to take the inside view and argue the risk of specific doomsday scenarios, then go right ahead. But I have about as little confidence on that as I have on anthropic reasoning, although for different reasons.

The way I understand it, SSA suggests future doom (eventually, not soon) but says nothing about probability of past doom. SIA suggests that, to the extent that the universe could be such that human extinction during the Cold War was improbable, we should expect to be in such a universe (but SIA says nothing about probability of future doom).

Maybe thinking about possible universes is useless, I dunno. I suspect it isn't, but I have no idea how to get evidence either way, at least barring some improbably groundbreaking physics (if you can, say, prove multiple universes of some sort or another and properly define probabilities of the universe turning out in some way other than what it has).

Quote
We do have a little more inductive reasoning about individual nations. I would hazard a guess that dismantling nuclear weapons worldwide (yes, that includes the United States) is a less dangerous strategy than what essentially amounts to a huge game of chicken with mutually-assured destruction. Any actions that favor deproliferation over brinksmanship would, in that sense, decrease the probability that an individual nation tries a nuclear first strike.

Probably true. But that's relative, not absolute. "This reduces the probability of doom" tells you very little about what the actual probability of doom is, only whether it's more or less than before.
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Re: IMHO The Doomsday Clock Is A Bunch of Crap!
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 06:25:38 am »
Quote
We do have a little more inductive reasoning about individual nations. I would hazard a guess that dismantling nuclear weapons worldwide (yes, that includes the United States) is a less dangerous strategy than what essentially amounts to a huge game of chicken with mutually-assured destruction. Any actions that favor deproliferation over brinksmanship would, in that sense, decrease the probability that an individual nation tries a nuclear first strike.

Probably true. But that's relative, not absolute. "This reduces the probability of doom" tells you very little about what the actual probability of doom is, only whether it's more or less than before.

Tis true, but its likely a more realistic goal to move toward things that reduce our chance of annihilation on a relative scale than to know our true, absolute chance of annihilation.  The former is fairly simple for modern science to understand and work with, the latter would require you take into account the millions upon millions of factors, both large and small, to get anywhere in the same neighbourhood as our actual chance of doom, and even then, quite a few of those factors would likely be subjective and/or open to interpretation.
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