Author Topic: Personal responsibility and health care  (Read 7076 times)

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Offline booley

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Personal responsibility and health care
« on: January 04, 2012, 09:24:06 pm »
Sorry, this is just me ranting.

While having a debate with a conservative about health care, I mentioned I had friends and family with diabetes.
He replied that diabetes (at least type 2) is "self inflicted".  I have heard this before.  A person with diabetes has only themselves to blame because they made bad choices.  So they deserve neither sympathy nor help.  Certainly public money should not be used since they brought their misery on themselves.  IF they hadn't been so "irresponsible" then they would have avoided getting diabetes (or any other medical condition I guess.  I have heard others make the same argument for cancer)
At first I was angry.  Then I thought about it.  While not entirely true it's not entirely false either.  Choices we make and do affect our health, often much later in life.  Here are some choices that can negatively affect your health:
Smoking
Eating fast foods, especially as a child
Living with a smoker (especially as a child)
Drinking water out of  a plastic bottle
Being an auto mechanic or working on your car.
Having ever joined the military (even if you never actually fight)
Living ina  city.
Working on a farm.
Working in an office.
Living in certain other parts of the world.
In fact living on any part of the world.
Handling paper receipts.
Having children
Not having children
Having sex with anyone ever.
Having a cat
Getting an X ray
Taking antibiotics
Eating meat (any kind of meat)
Eating vegetables (any vegetables)
Breathing or drinking the water in many places
And on and on. I could probably think of  a thousand more.  Point is, I don't think the "personal responsibility" thing as conservatives I have talked too defined it really works for health care.  Since everyone is going to make some bad decision at some time that may effect their health (and some really are choice less choices) then no one could ever meet that standard.

Am I right in thinking that?  Because that is a central theme among conservatives: problems are personal problems, not societal.  You have only yourself to blame. yadda yadda.  On the surface the argument can seem appealing since we don't want to reward bad behavior.

But everyone makes bad decisions even if they don't realize they are bad at the time? (I certainly didn't know fast food was addictive when I was five)

Which means that yes, we have to help people even those that made "bad decisions"
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Offline Auri-El

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 09:33:40 pm »
I agree with you. That's like saying someone who got in a car accident is at fault for getting in the car. Shit happens, and people get sick. Also, things like diabetes are partly genetic, so even if people make good choices that's no guarantee they won't get sick.

Offline TenfoldMaquette

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 09:47:25 pm »
If you avoid every situation where your choice might lead to a bad outcome, you might as well give up living now. While certain precautions can be taken to reduce risk, no one is immune to random chance or the malice (intentional or otherwise) of others. It's irrational to hold people accountable for things they cannot predict or avoid, and even if that were not the case, I would like to think that helping people because helping others is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself would still be the preferable course of action.

Offline Smurfette Principle

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 09:50:55 pm »
If you avoid every situation where your choice might lead to a bad outcome, you might as well give up living now. While certain precautions can be taken to reduce risk, no one is immune to random chance or the malice (intentional or otherwise) of others. It's irrational to hold people accountable for things they cannot predict or avoid, and even if that were not the case, I would like to think that helping people because helping others is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself would still be the preferable course of action.

This. It's impossible to guard against every possibility, because merely living makes you susceptible to bad things.

Offline DasFuchs

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 11:46:12 pm »
Very, even sitting locked in a room for years on end leads to an unhealthy outcome.

The thing they seem to skip is if people have access to health care lots of things can be taken care of cheaply and effectively instead of waiting till whatever issue becomes major, costs a ton, and eventually gets dumped on everyone anyways because the person couldn't afford the treatment.
Always sad to here them scream socialism when the bill gets pushed on everyone under the current system.
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Offline booley

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 11:54:36 pm »
Very, even sitting locked in a room for years on end leads to an unhealthy outcome.

The thing they seem to skip is if people have access to health care lots of things can be taken care of cheaply and effectively instead of waiting till whatever issue becomes major, costs a ton, and eventually gets dumped on everyone anyways because the person couldn't afford the treatment.
Always sad to here them scream socialism when the bill gets pushed on everyone under the current system.

That's the rub. I think they do know this, that so called socialized medicine is cheaper.

And they don't care.

It's the idea that some where someone they think undeserving is benefitting with money the con had to pay.  Even if the con benefits too, they dont' care.  They seem perfectly willing to shoulder that extra cost as long as those "unworthies" don't get a leg up.

It's crab mentality.
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Offline DasFuchs

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 12:01:28 am »
Very, even sitting locked in a room for years on end leads to an unhealthy outcome.

The thing they seem to skip is if people have access to health care lots of things can be taken care of cheaply and effectively instead of waiting till whatever issue becomes major, costs a ton, and eventually gets dumped on everyone anyways because the person couldn't afford the treatment.
Always sad to here them scream socialism when the bill gets pushed on everyone under the current system.

That's the rub. I think they do know this, that so called socialized medicine is cheaper.

And they don't care.

It's the idea that some where someone they think undeserving is benefitting with money the con had to pay.  Even if the con benefits too, they dont' care.  They seem perfectly willing to shoulder that extra cost as long as those "unworthies" don't get a leg up.

It's crab mentality.

Well, it's like here in Michigan, there's a big rise in people bitching about unemployment bankrupting the state and crap like that, so it should be done away with because these people bitching don't need it. It's not fair they should have to pay for it.
Well it's not fair that people lost their jobs or got laid off because their companies aren't making enough money to keep running.
This "get rid of unemployment" group of people think they're paying for people that were fired for their own reasons, which isn't so. If you were fired the MUIA will not accept you.
Given a good majority of these people come from a Christian background, I wonder if they ever think about helping their fellow man rather than taking away.
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Offline Auri-El

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 12:09:44 am »
The irony*: A lot of those same people would be perfectly fine with receiving unemployment if they ever needed it.

*probably using the word incorrectly, but I don't give a damn

Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 12:16:14 am »
One would expect that someone who hates people on unemployment would refuse to go on unemployment themselves.

The reality is that they often do go on unemployment themselves and don't see a problem with it.

That's the definition of irony.  And hypocrisy.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 12:17:33 am »
Wasn't there a government program in Canada that gave heroin addicts free heroin? And then instead of resorting to crime, they got a chance to check into rehab if they wanted to get off the drug?

Because I like that idea.
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 01:26:23 am »
Wasn't there a government program in Canada that gave heroin addicts free heroin? And then instead of resorting to crime, they got a chance to check into rehab if they wanted to get off the drug?

Because I like that idea.

Vancouver started dispensing heroin to addicts about five or so years ago, though I'm not certain if they're still doing it.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 01:28:07 am »
People who get themselves injured or sick through their own negligence still have the same right to good health as everyone else.
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Offline The Right Honourable Mlle Antéchrist

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 01:38:27 am »
People who get themselves injured or sick through their own negligence still have the same right to good health as everyone else.

Yeah, I've never liked the idea that a person's poor decisions automatically negate certain rights.
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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 01:39:30 am »
The personal responsibility argument fails when compared to the economic argument (something conservatives should agree with). Denying health coverage costs money in the long run for the vast majority of people because it will mean they'll be physically unable to work as efficiently or at all as much as they would with good health coverage, meaning less taxes paid and less goods and services produced by the general economy, even if they got sick in the first place due to their own bad choices.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Personal responsibility and health care
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 01:43:38 am »
Funny how folks with this kind of attitude believe that tobacco companies, junk food suppliers et al DO deserve sympathy and support when they are taxed and regulated (taxed, and also regulated-the horror)!