Author Topic: Faith vs. Religion  (Read 6728 times)

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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2013, 03:18:23 pm »
I don't think smoking is the greatest example because it'll harm you even in moderation, but it makes sense for drinking.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2013, 04:13:12 pm »
I don't think smoking is the greatest example because it'll harm you even in moderation, but it makes sense for drinking.

I can't personally understand why drinking would bring meaning to anyone's life. But I understand the appeal behind religion because some people need it to feel that they are loved, that there is a plan, and that they are part of something greater and more just. In that respect, I have trouble condemning religious people as inherently inferior to nonreligious people. They should be judged by their actions, not by their beliefs. If their beliefs or nonbeliefs help make them better people, good for them.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2013, 04:20:34 pm »
He wasn't saying that the two are alike in that alcohol can also bring meaning to a person's life. He stated that too much of either one can be harmful for you, and that's true. Alcoholism can lead to physical and psychological harming of yourself and others, and although too much religion doesn't do direct physical harm, fundamentalism is an unhealthy mindset overall and can lead to destructive behaviors, ultimately.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2013, 04:58:34 pm »
He wasn't saying that the two are alike in that alcohol can also bring meaning to a person's life. He stated that too much of either one can be harmful for you, and that's true. Alcoholism can lead to physical and psychological harming of yourself and others, and although too much religion doesn't do direct physical harm, fundamentalism is an unhealthy mindset overall and can lead to destructive behaviors, ultimately.

Ah, okay then.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2013, 05:56:43 pm »
I've always had faith. Faith not so much in a particular code or religion, but in a controlling higher power. I don't feel it's a terribly hard jump of logic to have a certain amount of faith in that. I see religion as imperfect attempts of humans to grasp something so terribly beyond them messed together with social control to a degree, though that effort has gone to the wayside and instead provides community. Larger than family and friends. It also provides guidance that is lacking in secular society. Sometimes having a few base guidelines can be nice. When you're a child, being told to 'figure it out' when it comes to complicated issues like morality, ethics, and other things is not good. I didn't fully form my moral code until I had taken a basic philosophy class because I had been exposed heavily to religious morals/ethics, and exposure to philosophical, secular morals made a huge difference. People need guidance. Not saying they'll go insane, just being lost makes plenty of people depressed or shallow. Religion provides that in a seemingly cruel and indifferent universe, though beautiful all told.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2013, 06:10:43 pm »
I've always had faith. Faith not so much in a particular code or religion, but in a controlling higher power. I don't feel it's a terribly hard jump of logic to have a certain amount of faith in that. I see religion as imperfect attempts of humans to grasp something so terribly beyond them messed together with social control to a degree, though that effort has gone to the wayside and instead provides community. Larger than family and friends. It also provides guidance that is lacking in secular society. Sometimes having a few base guidelines can be nice. When you're a child, being told to 'figure it out' when it comes to complicated issues like morality, ethics, and other things is not good. I didn't fully form my moral code until I had taken a basic philosophy class because I had been exposed heavily to religious morals/ethics, and exposure to philosophical, secular morals made a huge difference. People need guidance. Not saying they'll go insane, just being lost makes plenty of people depressed or shallow. Religion provides that in a seemingly cruel and indifferent universe, though beautiful all told.

What type of community does it provide that is larger than family and friends?

Also, the absence of religion doesn't mean a parent will simply tell a child "Figure it out." You can raise a child with good morals without bringing any gods into the picture.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 07:35:42 pm »
There are indeed pure atheist families where both parents raise their child with morals and a love of life without bringing religion into it. They don't necessarily raise their child "as an atheist" in the same way that you would raise a child "as a Catholic." They don't raise the child to specifically believe that religion is a sham, or that religious people are delusional. There's almost definitely children who have been raised this way simply because of statistical probability, but they're not exactly the majority of non-religious families.

Teaching morality is something that can very easily be done totally separate from religion. You don't exactly see atheists raping and pillaging, especially not ones who were never raised as part of any organized religion at any part of their life. Someone who only engages in moral acts because they were made to fear punishment from a higher power, or because they want to earn a reward from that higher power, is not a truly moral or altruistic person.
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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 12:52:14 pm »
He wasn't saying that the two are alike in that alcohol can also bring meaning to a person's life. He stated that too much of either one can be harmful for you, and that's true. Alcoholism can lead to physical and psychological harming of yourself and others, and although too much religion doesn't do direct physical harm, fundamentalism is an unhealthy mindset overall and can lead to destructive behaviors, ultimately.

Pretty much that.

Everyone has habits or some sort of character flaw. Everyone. Me, you, that cutie you had a crush on in junior high, the local weatherman, captains of industry, everyone. So, oddly, I don't feel I can judge someone for believing in something I don't as long as they don't take it to the extreme. If you think smoking is a bad example, then replace it with biting fingernails or enjoying South Park.
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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2013, 12:15:25 am »
I've always had faith. Faith not so much in a particular code or religion, but in a controlling higher power. I don't feel it's a terribly hard jump of logic to have a certain amount of faith in that. I see religion as imperfect attempts of humans to grasp something so terribly beyond them messed together with social control to a degree, though that effort has gone to the wayside and instead provides community. Larger than family and friends. It also provides guidance that is lacking in secular society. Sometimes having a few base guidelines can be nice. When you're a child, being told to 'figure it out' when it comes to complicated issues like morality, ethics, and other things is not good. I didn't fully form my moral code until I had taken a basic philosophy class because I had been exposed heavily to religious morals/ethics, and exposure to philosophical, secular morals made a huge difference. People need guidance. Not saying they'll go insane, just being lost makes plenty of people depressed or shallow. Religion provides that in a seemingly cruel and indifferent universe, though beautiful all told.

What type of community does it provide that is larger than family and friends?

Also, the absence of religion doesn't mean a parent will simply tell a child "Figure it out." You can raise a child with good morals without bringing any gods into the picture.

You need communal activities to build friends and acquitances and religion stereotypically provides this service. That said, I stated myself poorly. What I was trying to say was that traditionally religion provides a basis for these services and some Atheists have proposed a similar 'secular religion' type of guidance and community, though others have back lashed because they feel the 'fight it out' method is key to atheism... for some reason.

Though I mentioned I didn't feel comfortable with my moral codes until I meshed a certain portion of religious with secular philosophical, so I just feel like someone is not complete without investigation. Even if religion is wrong for a person, I feel there is something gained by the perspective.
The material needs a defender more than the spiritual. If there is a higher power, it can defend itself from the material. Thus denotes 'higher power'.

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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2013, 12:32:45 am »
The only thing I really have an issue with is trying to force your beliefs on your kids.  Teach them, take em to church, but don't oh, I dunno, burn their Magic: The Gathering cards because you think they're daemonic, which is what my dad did to my bro when we were kids.  Also bugs the fuck outta me when parents try to guilt trip their kids into staying in the fold should they show signs of deviating from "the path."  If they deviate, let them, don't be obnoxious snot-rags about it.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2013, 11:20:23 am »
You need communal activities to build friends and acquitances and religion stereotypically provides this service. That said, I stated myself poorly. What I was trying to say was that traditionally religion provides a basis for these services and some Atheists have proposed a similar 'secular religion' type of guidance and community, though others have back lashed because they feel the 'fight it out' method is key to atheism... for some reason.

There are plenty of ways to build friends and acquaintances outside of church. And I honestly wouldn't want to use a church gathering as a way to meet people because you have such a range of ages attending that it's going to be harder to find someone in your age group, let alone someone with similar interests/humor/whatever who's worth talking to. Whether you can even obtain this sense of community largely depends on where you live, as well, because so many cities (even those with bordering suburbs) have people with demanding jobs, or those who simply prefer their privacy. Community is something that's becoming outdated.

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Though I mentioned I didn't feel comfortable with my moral codes until I meshed a certain portion of religious with secular philosophical, so I just feel like someone is not complete without investigation. Even if religion is wrong for a person, I feel there is something gained by the perspective.

I'm not against people exploring religion at all, but I don't see why you have to mix religious and philosophical moral codes to be complete.
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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2013, 09:58:55 pm »
Honestly, I think there's a simple answer to what religion/spirituality can provide that most secular things don't seem to provide.

Namely, spirituality.  It sounds... really weird.  But I don't see religion as just a method of explaining things that can't be understood.  It probably started that way, but it seems to have evolved into something... more complex, let's say.

There's a big difference between going to, say, a coven assembly and going to hang out with your friends at the pub.

Regardless, spirituality.  It's ... argh, hard to put into words.  It's like satisfying a subconscious hunger almost.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2013, 10:32:13 pm »
I guess I don't like it when people say church provides something that secular things can't because (to me) it implies that everyone has a need for spirituality, and that atheists are missing out on it. As if we have a hole in our hearts. No. I'm not spiritual. I have zero desire to be that way, and I have no need for it. Some people do and that's dandy. But everyone is different. For some people, church can provide a way to express that spirituality, and for others, it does absolutely zero. I'm in the latter group.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2013, 02:56:20 am »
And for some, like me, church is (or at least was) an extremely draining experience and my parents' religion is one of the reasons my childhood was almost total, complete shit.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2013, 03:45:50 am »
I guess I don't like it when people say church provides something that secular things can't because (to me) it implies that everyone has a need for spirituality, and that atheists are missing out on it. As if we have a hole in our hearts.

Why the fuck would anyone here be implying that?

No, I don't think anything is wrong with you just because you aren't spiritual.  Just that some people have different desires than others, and that's not something that a secular group can always fill.

If anything, I've been trying hard not to misinterpret some posts here as saying that there's something wrong with us BECAUSE we're spiritual x_x because of my defensive nature.

And for some, like me, church is (or at least was) an extremely draining experience and my parents' religion is one of the reasons my childhood was almost total, complete shit.

Yeah, that happens far more often than it should >_<
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