Author Topic: Faith vs. Religion  (Read 6829 times)

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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2013, 08:51:33 am »
I guess I don't like it when people say church provides something that secular things can't because (to me) it implies that everyone has a need for spirituality, and that atheists are missing out on it. As if we have a hole in our hearts.

Why the fuck would anyone here be implying that?

No, I don't think anything is wrong with you just because you aren't spiritual.  Just that some people have different desires than others, and that's not something that a secular group can always fill.

If anything, I've been trying hard not to misinterpret some posts here as saying that there's something wrong with us BECAUSE we're spiritual x_x because of my defensive nature.

I was referring to people I've talked to IRL. I should've worded that better. I'm sure most folks on here know better than to think we all have heart holes.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2013, 09:28:06 am »
Nonreligious people are not necessarily lacking something because they are nonreligious.

Spiritual people are not necessarily weaker, stupider, or more desperate simply because they are spiritual.
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Offline rookie

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2013, 11:20:08 am »
Nobody here is saying that, Zachski. I think Sleepy is talking about the world she lives in, people she might see face to face. Or on other boards.

For what it's worth, the only thing church provides with any concrete benefits is an extremely convenient place for a group of people to meet with some regularity. Honestly, I believe we do just as good a job here as that. But the internet can't always match real human to human contact.
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Offline Cerim Treascair

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2013, 09:15:39 pm »
Just to poke my head back into my own thread here, to expand on Rookie's last point:  I don't know my buddy Fyrenn face to face.  But we're close enough, I've laid enough of myself and my past on the line to basically send him running... and he didn't.  I cherish the guy like very little else in my life.  I wasn't kidding when I said I'd like to call him my brother, because we feel that close.
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Offline Shane for Wax

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2013, 04:17:15 am »
I'm a lazy Pagan and I like the idea that maybe, someone, out of the many deities out there in my faith, someone actually gives a shit about me.

It doesn't entirely make sense, sure.

And I don't rely on said deity to help me out when times are tough. I don't just pray it away. Though there is one prayer that helps me simply because it's a chant and gets my mind off of other things.

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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2013, 10:10:19 am »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2013, 01:30:58 am »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

Something I've heard, I forget from where, but I find it applies very well to things like this: Tis better to be hated for being what you are than to be loved for trying to be something you're not.

Besides, if you want a hobby, there's far better ways to find one than by lying to yourself and others.
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Offline chitoryu12

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2013, 04:47:05 am »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

A douchey atheist would have been douchey anywhere else. There seems to be a great tendency among arrogant assholes to use their atheism as a sign of their intelligence, claiming that anyone with religious beliefs is a troglodyte scared of a fairy in the sky. Since atheism, by nature, attracts those who use logical reasoning to come to the conclusion about a lack of gods, it's a popular choice for assholes who want to feel that they're smarter than all the "sheeple."

I personally think that anyone who uses the term "sheeple" unironically should be thrown over a desk.
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Offline Osama bin Bambi

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2013, 01:22:50 pm »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

A douchey atheist would have been douchey anywhere else. There seems to be a great tendency among arrogant assholes to use their atheism as a sign of their intelligence, claiming that anyone with religious beliefs is a troglodyte scared of a fairy in the sky. Since atheism, by nature, attracts those who use logical reasoning to come to the conclusion about a lack of gods, it's a popular choice for assholes who want to feel that they're smarter than all the "sheeple."

I personally think that anyone who uses the term "sheeple" unironically should be thrown over a desk.

Either they gravitate towards atheism, or they gravitate towards conspiracy theories. Both make their adherents feel like they're a step above everyone else because they know the "troof".
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 04:29:57 pm »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

You don't need to be a certain religion just to talk to people. That's silly.
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Offline Auggziliary

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2013, 04:37:22 pm »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

You don't need to be a certain religion just to talk to people. That's silly.

Well, talk to more people. I'm pretty outgoing.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2013, 04:48:28 pm »
You need communal activities to build friends and acquitances and religion stereotypically provides this service. That said, I stated myself poorly. What I was trying to say was that traditionally religion provides a basis for these services and some Atheists have proposed a similar 'secular religion' type of guidance and community, though others have back lashed because they feel the 'fight it out' method is key to atheism... for some reason.

There are plenty of ways to build friends and acquaintances outside of church. And I honestly wouldn't want to use a church gathering as a way to meet people because you have such a range of ages attending that it's going to be harder to find someone in your age group, let alone someone with similar interests/humor/whatever who's worth talking to. Whether you can even obtain this sense of community largely depends on where you live, as well, because so many cities (even those with bordering suburbs) have people with demanding jobs, or those who simply prefer their privacy. Community is something that's becoming outdated.

Some people with a lack of community get saddened or may fall into depression due to lack of social contact. I also... well mentioned that there is an idea for secular institutions with the express purpose of community building and guidance. I mentioned Churches as the 'traditional' get together kind of place, as in that it is most common for churches to serve this purpose historically but does not mean it is the sole arbiter of it into the future. I mean, my dad mentions how going to church was a good time to meet with people. After church, it's never uncommon for people to congregate and meet who are little more than acquittance and chat a little to get to know each other. It's a step by step. I really don't understand your anti-community stance in the least, to be honest. Secular or Religious, there's nothing wrong with people being more interconnected.

And for some, like me, church is (or at least was) an extremely draining experience and my parents' religion is one of the reasons my childhood was almost total, complete shit.

Really depends on A: How Forced it is and B: How the pastor/minister is. Had a good pastor for a while so I was excited by my religion, but he retired and got a really terrible one that basically made me want to quit the religion just to get away from his terriblinessness.

I personally think that anyone who uses the term "sheeple" unironically should be thrown over a desk.

The word makes my skin crawl when it's not used in reference or irony.

Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

Most atheists come from hardliner conservative religions, so they tend to turn into hardliner conservative atheists. They don't see that the attitude is the problem, the hardline and conservative aspects, but their religion or lack thereof. This sort of attitude is a poor method of going about life, but like most hardliners they tend to be real dickweeds about things. I have a hardline atheist as my roommate for three months and the guy's overconfidence in his knowledge was staggering.

Hobbies are good, though I could only offer video gaming, history research, and tabletop gaming over interwebs here.
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Offline Sleepy

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2013, 06:00:33 pm »
Sometimes I consider pretending to be Christian or something just so I can talk to new people. A lot of the atheists I know are kinda.... douchey. I'm not sure if it's because they're atheists though. It might be that they were douches when they were religious but they were afraid of hell or something.
I also need a hobby.

You don't need to be a certain religion just to talk to people. That's silly.

Well, talk to more people. I'm pretty outgoing.

I still don't understand the need. I mean, if you have to be Christian in order to talk to someone, then I doubt you want to talk to that person in the first place.


Some people with a lack of community get saddened or may fall into depression due to lack of social contact.

That could be, but lack of community does not equal lack of social contact, if we're going by the traditional definition of "community" here.

Quote
I also... well mentioned that there is an idea for secular institutions with the express purpose of community building and guidance. I mentioned Churches as the 'traditional' get together kind of place, as in that it is most common for churches to serve this purpose historically but does not mean it is the sole arbiter of it into the future. I mean, my dad mentions how going to church was a good time to meet with people. After church, it's never uncommon for people to congregate and meet who are little more than acquittance and chat a little to get to know each other. It's a step by step.

If people enjoy getting to know one another after church, that's perfectly fine.

Quote
I really don't understand your anti-community stance in the least, to be honest. Secular or Religious, there's nothing wrong with people being more interconnected.

Nowhere did I say that I was anti-community. I stated that church is not the only way to meet people, and that I personally would not want to use church as a way to do so. I have other ways I prefer to do that. Such a preference is not anti-community. I also explained that some people simply don't want or don't get the chance to have a sense of community because of location or work. Living in an apartment in a large city surely doesn't easily allow such a thing, and if you've got a demanding job or a hectic life in general, you're probably not going to take the time to get to know your neighbors and become part of any community. Just because I said it's fading doesn't mean I'm against it.

Quote
Most atheists come from hardliner conservative religions, so they tend to turn into hardliner conservative atheists. They don't see that the attitude is the problem, the hardline and conservative aspects, but their religion or lack thereof. This sort of attitude is a poor method of going about life, but like most hardliners they tend to be real dickweeds about things. I have a hardline atheist as my roommate for three months and the guy's overconfidence in his knowledge was staggering.

This seems to be painting all atheists with a broad, negative brush. Hardcore conservative Christians are a minority, and atheists are no different.
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Offline Material Defender

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2013, 12:49:24 am »

Quote
Most atheists come from hardliner conservative religions, so they tend to turn into hardliner conservative atheists. They don't see that the attitude is the problem, the hardline and conservative aspects, but their religion or lack thereof. This sort of attitude is a poor method of going about life, but like most hardliners they tend to be real dickweeds about things. I have a hardline atheist as my roommate for three months and the guy's overconfidence in his knowledge was staggering.

This seems to be painting all atheists with a broad, negative brush. Hardcore conservative Christians are a minority, and atheists are no different.

Well, yeah. I just was saying it was a common starting point. Most people mature into more reasonable forms of things. Though I've seen a lot of people take a 'strong' position at some point in their lives for whatever reason.
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Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Faith vs. Religion
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2013, 01:25:13 am »
@MD: The whole church thing was pretty much forced, but the Elders that did the sermons were, by and large, fairly nice folks.  Don't get me wrong, I didn't leave because of the people, they were some of the nicest, most charitable folks I've ever come across.  Hell, when we had our car stolen and subsequently destroyed beyond repair, one of the members gave us their 2nd car to use until we could get a new one, and several of the members brought us groceries so we could save up more money.

The thing that led me away from religion wasn't the people, it was the religion itself.  More specifically, the Bible.  I read it a lot as a kid, and the more I read, and the older I got, the less it made sense to me.  I'm not talking simple inconsistencies, but things that Yahweh did that were downright repugnant, reprehensible, and utterly immoral beyond redemption.  I didn't want to be associated with a god like that, I didn't want to worship a god that ignored me, ignored my pleas for help.  I realized that I couldn't rely on him, that if I wanted something done, I had to do it myself, because no divine intervention was coming.  Not because he didn't want to, but because he couldn't, because he's not there, he's not listening, and he can't care, because he doesn't exist.

In short, people didn't kill religion for me, religion did.
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